or is society just over medicated? but is it better to over medicate than under medicate?

discuss in this thread. today in class someone denied the existence of depression and adhd completely. he asked if people actually benefit more from taking medicine than they would otherwise.

10/22/2009 5:33:08 PM

yes

10/22/2009 5:33:55 PM

damn, no boobs in here

10/22/2009 5:35:01 PM

well i'd just never heard anyone outright deny the existence of all three

10/22/2009 5:37:46 PM

Yes, all of them do exist.

And yes, they're overdiagnosed and overtreated.

10/22/2009 5:38:52 PM

people say all kinds of crazy shit...so much that you can count on never hearing it all

^This.

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 5:39 PM. Reason : sdf]

10/22/2009 5:39:21 PM

i think they are over diagnosed too

but i also don't like the people who are like "just deal with it" and people who are like "if they're on medication they won't ever learn to cope with problems"

(heard that today too)

it was like the medicated people v the nonmedicated people

i think the nonmedicated people are just jealous

10/22/2009 5:41:08 PM

Or, they've got a couple miles to walk and need a new pair of shoes in which to do it.

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 5:42 PM. Reason : what class was this, btw?]

10/22/2009 5:42:04 PM

people deny the legitimacy of psychiatric medicine in general; this is just a limited version of the same argument

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 5:42 PM. Reason : sp]

10/22/2009 5:42:16 PM

^^ child advocacy law. so we were mostly taking about these medicines with regard to "children" (though that definition varies from <21 to <18). but we were talking about how the symptoms of adhd are often just the symptoms of being a kid and that it'd be easy to be a parent, just not want to deal with your kid, and medicate

but then some kids legitimately need help

and then we started talking about young adults and people who were/weren't on medication as children and who may be on it now. it was an interesting conversation.

and then it turned into a discussion of what was a "real" disease and what were legitimate treatments. i mean obviously therapy seems like the best starting point but who is paying for that? it is easier just to hand out a one time Rx. i mean, it sucks but i dunno its like a vicious cycle that seems hard to break.

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 5:44 PM. Reason : .]

10/22/2009 5:43:51 PM

Quote :

"how the symptoms of adhd are often just the symptoms of being a kid and that it'd be easy to be a parent, just not want to deal with your kid, and medicate but then some kids legitimately need help"

The DSM does a very good job of helping psychiatrists differentiate between the two. Too often, parents force the psychatrist's hand, insisting on a diagnosis that isn't indicated. (or other adults in the child's life). If you get a chance to continue/resume this conversation in class, I suggest that you have the latest version of the DSM handy

I have very little sympathy for psychiatrists that allow this to happen, however. And pediatricians ought not to be diagnosing or prescribing for mental issues. As complicated as mental problems are to start with, they're even more so in the younger population, so a referral is more than warranted. But again...patients

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 5:47 PM. Reason : d]

10/22/2009 5:47:10 PM

what people don't understand about things like depression or ADD (or most other psychiatric conditions) is that it's not just the presence of symptoms or diagnostic criteria to consider, but more importantly it's the degree to which they affect your life

10/22/2009 5:47:14 PM

^This, too.

And that's also something the DSM tells medical professionals to evaluate

10/22/2009 5:48:23 PM

^^ yes

Quote :

"And pediatricians ought not to be diagnosing or prescribing for mental issues."

and exactly. we talked about that too. how a lot of adults just take their kids into the pediatrician or the GP and get an Rx easy peasy lemon squeezy.




[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 5:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/22/2009 5:49:00 PM

i got my doctor to certify that i had "grown out" of my adhd after i graduated

but it was nice registering for classes before everyone else

10/22/2009 5:50:26 PM

I guess, looking back at my life so far...I was not diagnosed until I was an adult, and not until after I had failed out of college. Looking back, all the trademark symptoms were there all along. None ever got treated, and I had a lot of difficulty in my elementary and high school years academically and emotionally. I look back and wonder just how things would have turned out had somebody caught this earlier.

As it was, I grew up in a small town, in a time where such disorders weren't widely known and medication for the conditions were all but unheard of. In retrospect, things could have turned out very differently, had the opportunity to be treated existed.

So here I am now, 38 physically, but mentally and emotionally, definitely NOT 38. But, that's the way things go sometimes. And for some, it takes a lot longer than others. It does suck not having all my shit together at this age, when a lot of my high school peers have families (some with high school kids themselves) and good established careers, especially when I feel like I'm just starting out again.

Yes, this shit exists. Yes, it's a real problem for some. I think, however, that a bigger problem lies with parents who carry things to the opposite end of the extreme in which I grew up...where kids don't receive the structure and discipline that they should, and often fail to learn about cause and effect and the consequences of their actions. A vast majority of children today are being raised in a quick fix environment. Parents are raising a new generation of junkies...legal junkies.

10/22/2009 6:16:05 PM

"he"

is a fool

now do they exist at the rate people are seeing? probably not, or people are just having it more 'discovered' as in actual rates were always high but mostly going untreated.

what rock does this guy live under?

10/22/2009 6:16:40 PM

Yes, considering I have both.

10/22/2009 6:17:50 PM

well people are more encouraged to "talk to someone" and get treated. Our parents' generation didn't believe in any of that...so the rate of those diagnosed are definitely higher bc people are actually seeking help rather than just sweeping things under the rug.

10/22/2009 6:19:21 PM

Quote :

"discuss in this thread. today in class someone denied the existence of depression and adhd completely. he asked if people actually benefit more from taking medicine than they would otherwise."

would put serious money on this guy being religious + southern accent

10/22/2009 6:26:08 PM

lots of experts ITT

10/22/2009 6:29:09 PM

Hey, until a PhD comes in here, it's pretty much all anecdotal.

10/22/2009 6:29:48 PM

PEOPLE WITH DEPRESSION JUST NEED TO BUCK UP HEH

*has never known anybody with depression or has simply ignored their problems*

10/22/2009 6:29:52 PM

I'm not going to deny the existence of ADD, but honestly, paying attention in school sucks. I've always wondered how many people suffering from ADD really have a disorder, and how many just don't like school that much, and find it boring. I've taken plenty of classes where paying attention was a struggle, or I just didn't even bother because it was so dull. Now, if it's something I'm interested in, I can focus in and really absorb the information.

Can people with ADD/ADHD not focus on things that they actually enjoy learning about? Can they watch a television show without getting up and doing something else?

As far as depression, it seems to exist, just because I know people that have everything going for them and randomly get depressed. I'm pretty sure that some people that get treated for depression are justifiably depressed, though. If you're fat, socially inept, unsuccessful at pretty much everything you do, a professional TWW poster, and an all around failure, you should be depressed. You should find a way to get motivated and change the direction of your life.

Also, I think ADD prescriptions should be legal for everyone to buy and use. It's honestly not fair that only people with ADD can legally get adderall. People that don't have ADD already use it, with great success. It's an unfair advantage in school.

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2009 6:32:26 PM

Depression has to be real. When my doc put me on a high-dose hormone birth control, I just wanted to sit in my room all day, every day and cry for absolutely no reason. I was too depressed to hang out with the bf, so it was an effective bc! When I stopped taking it, all was fine.

Hormonal imbalances will definitely screw with your head.

Pull and pray method ftw. Pray twice, just to be safe.

10/22/2009 6:38:55 PM

lucy you won't get pregnant if you're sitting on top

10/22/2009 6:42:15 PM

Butt sex is another safe choice.

10/22/2009 6:45:03 PM

I pretty much agree with DaveOT

yes they're real, but yes doctors would often rather write a quick prescription and get to the next patient than spend meaningful time on individual patients

ps: UHC isn't going to help that fact

10/22/2009 6:46:48 PM

Quote :

"Butt sex is another safe choice."

+mouf

10/22/2009 6:47:40 PM

One of my college friends had severe depression and gained 50 lbs bc her shrink told her to eat pasta every time she got sad. WTF? Why not prescribe exercise or sex? Wouldn't those be better for depression patients?

She got more depressed by being 50 lbs overweight.

10/22/2009 6:53:22 PM

Quote :

"Why not prescribe exercise or sex?"

fixed it for you

10/22/2009 6:54:51 PM

I don't know about add and adhd, but depression for goddamn sure exists

10/22/2009 7:04:32 PM

Quote :

"today in class someone denied the existence of depression and adhd completely."

if i went to a class and this discussion actually started, i would walk out with a quickness

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:05 PM. Reason : what a fucking waste of time]

10/22/2009 7:05:23 PM

Quote :

"Hey, until a PhD comes in here, it's pretty much all anecdotal."

how about an MD?

10/22/2009 7:05:41 PM

Yarb, they all exist.

Plenty of cases where people are medicated when they don't need it. I think it depends on how easy it is to get a script from your doctor and how paranoid/crazy/dumb the parent can be. I'm not saying parents who medicate their kids are dumb, I'm saying when a parent is paranoid/crazy/dumb they're way more likely to medicate their kids. I've seen this first hand. Benadryl is the solution to all problems...

Yeah, anyway, I thought I was just a bit "down in the dumps" as it were after I dropped out of grad school and nearly ran my ass into the ground keeping up with what I thought were my priorities in life. My doc said I had major depressive disorder and gave me an SSRI. Suddenly parts of my brain/soul started working again (albeit badly) that hadn't been working for years and I had not realized it. After switching to another med after a few months and staying on that for six more months, I've dropped all medications and started a new job. I'm now way more extroverted, way happier about my life (though not a cheerful cunt), and find that I'm basically a reborn person in many aspects.

Quote :

"Also, I think ADD prescriptions should be legal for everyone to buy and use. It's honestly not fair that only people with ADD can legally get adderall. People that don't have ADD already use it, with great success. It's an unfair advantage in school."

This is true. And, of course, people using the medication without a good reason become retarded defensive when you point out that they're taking something they don't need to help them do something that they could do just fine on their own. Whatever, people suck and are gay sometimes.

10/22/2009 7:13:44 PM

Quote :

"If your hot all you need to do is wait. If not you can wear a beeni and scarf."

10/22/2009 7:18:02 PM

Quote :

"If you're fat, socially inept, unsuccessful at pretty much everything you do, a professional TWW poster, and an all around failure, you should be depressed. You should find a way to get motivated and change the direction of your life."

This is a chicken vs. egg argument, though.

Do these things cause depression, or does depression cause these things?

I argue both, actually. It's a downward spiral.




Can't speak for ADHD, or ADD... but depression certainly exists. Struggled with it since early childhood.

10/22/2009 7:18:28 PM

Quote :

"This is true. And, of course, people using the medication without a good reason become retarded defensive when you point out that they're taking something they don't need to help them do something that they could do just fine on their own. Whatever, people suck and are gay sometimes."

I think they're entirely justified in using those drugs, though. If there are people out there getting misdiagnosed, which there most certainly are, it's not right that they can pop a pill that makes them want to work hard, and do well in school as a result. People with ADD aren't the only ones that find it hard to get motivated.

Quote :

"This is a chicken vs. egg argument, though. Do these things cause depression, or does depression cause these things? I argue both, actually. It's a downward spiral. "

Yeah, that's a tough call to make. If you're incredibly out of shape, to the point of not even wanting to see your own reflection, how can that not be a depressing reality? It's not hard to let yourself go and get to that point. The part where you let yourself go isn't necessarily caused by depression, though. If you really like Bojangles and WoW, you might be happy as can be while you're in the process of become obese, but for how long?

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:23 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2009 7:19:15 PM

Quote :

"today in class someone denied the existence of depression and adhd completely"

Was he a short guy, with dark brown hair, who claimed to be in Top Gun?

10/22/2009 7:21:27 PM

School's not a fucking competition it's a place you go to learn

10/22/2009 7:21:46 PM

^ are you 60?

Remind me never to walk on your lawn

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:22 PM. Reason : a]

10/22/2009 7:22:29 PM

^^Actually, it is a competition. If you plan on doing anything with your life, everything you do is going to be measured against other people like you. If drugs help you achieve that edge, then you should use that to your advantage.

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:28 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2009 7:25:17 PM

Quote :

"would put serious money on this guy being religious + southern accent "

i dunno about religious but he is old and had a liver transplant which i almost brought up but i played nice

not that that has anything to do with anything, he was just talking about people (humanity) or whatever existing forever without medicine for adhd/depression/etc

well we existed for a long time without liver transplants too

guess where that leaves you? oh yea, dead!

10/22/2009 7:38:20 PM

your stupid

10/22/2009 7:38:50 PM

i wish i could think of a way to mess up "i'm"

but i can't

so you win

10/22/2009 7:39:42 PM

nm, saw it above

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:40 PM. Reason : ]

10/22/2009 7:40:09 PM

i explained that kind of at the top

child advocacy law

and why wouldn't it be discussed in law school? i can think of lots of legal implications dealing with psychiatric conditions and/or the distribution of medicine and/or the requirement that someone take medicine

10/22/2009 7:41:14 PM

Quote :

" As it was, I grew up in a small town, in a time where such disorders weren't widely known and medication for the conditions were all but unheard of. In retrospect, things could have turned out very differently, had the opportunity to be treated existed. So here I am now, 38 physically, but mentally and emotionally, definitely NOT 38. But, that's the way things go sometimes. And for some, it takes a lot longer than others. It does suck not having all my shit together at this age, when a lot of my high school peers have families (some with high school kids themselves) and good established careers, especially when I feel like I'm just starting out again. "

gg neatly avoiding responsibility for your life... hmm... wonder if that type of outlook has contributed to your consistent failure

10/22/2009 7:44:20 PM

I hate how ADD is stereotyped; it's not as simple as people make it out to be. Medication is NOT supposed to be used as a fix-all for ADD either. The medication needs to be used in conjunction with other things like counseling or behavior modification! I have never taken my medication and stayed up all night to write a paper. It doesn't make it easy for me to sit down and read something that I find boring. If anything, I find it to be more of a "director of traffic".

10/22/2009 7:48:04 PM

Quote :

"One of my college friends had severe depression and gained 50 lbs bc her shrink told her to eat pasta every time she got sad. WTF? Why not prescribe exercise or sex? Wouldn't those be better for depression patients? "

She should have made that her last appointment with that asshat

Quote :

" I've always wondered how many people suffering from ADD really have a disorder, and how many just don't like school that much, and find it boring. I've taken plenty of classes where paying attention was a struggle, or I just didn't even bother because it was so dull. Now, if it's something I'm interested in, I can focus in and really absorb the information. Can people with ADD/ADHD not focus on things that they actually enjoy learning about? Can they watch a television show without getting up and doing something else?"

My parents just thought I was difficult - they had no other frame of reference. It was until they took me in for counseling for depression (around 8 or 9!) that the therapist went 'whoa...let's take a look at this, too'. They put me on ritalin, told no one, and the difference was so profound the school called my parents the first day I was on ritalin.

You're only focusing on part of the ADD, and that's the attention part. A big component is impulse control...or lack thereof. Distractability and poor impulse control feed on each other like you wouldn't believe.

I mean, shit...paying attention in class? I do as much of that as I need to. These days, anyways. It's actually much, much, much easier to pay attention in college than it ever was in K-12: there is enough material presented for me to constantly engage myself in productive ways, be it through direct note-taking, applying previous material to the current topic (this one's fun, and really cuts down on how much I have to study later, in terms of making the connections in material that the professor intends for us to do), or adding new info to plans for assignments. Back up through high school, there wasn't enough material being presented to interest me. The hardest part about college + ADD is the work outside of class, and staying on track enough to get shit done. This is ultimately what has driven to have the meds again...even though I don't take them as often as I probably should.

To answer your specific question about TV? For me, while I can watch TV, I choose not to. It's too much of a commitment - same for movies. Much of the time (and this is for everything I try to do, not just television), I get distracted by my cat, a dust bunny I see under the entertainment center, cars driving down the street, my hair, the twill pattern of the couch - and so on. Everything is highly interesting

I have no idea how zorthage ever did put up with this, or still does. I can be saying a sentence, and either get so far ahead in my train of thought that I realize I'm still talking, and have a 'huh, what?' moment, or get distracted by something external, and abandon what I was saying.

We have a lighting fixture in the kitchen from when I was in a thrift store, saw it as I was walking by, came to an abrupt stop and went OOOH SHINY. It's pretty, btw The retardation is where I actually pivoted and went OOOH SHINY; the ADD part is where nothing on earth could have kept me from being fascinated once I saw it...No matter how momentary that fascination was.

I think it'd be funny for eahanhan or zorthage to post about how ridiculously ADD I am, because I know their perspectives have more :carlface: to them, and do a better job of conveying how pathetic I can be

It's actually precisely because of the overdiagnosis and the attitudes that causes that I avoid taking the medicine or talking about it. It feels shameful to say 'yeah, I got dat', because there are so many people diagnosed with it...I feel fraudulent by association. If I take adderall as I'm supposed to, I run out sooner, which means another trip to the doc, which means discussing this with someone, and hey, isn't that convenient? A college kid on adderall, getting another Rx for it...never seen that before!

Quote :

"well we existed for a long time without liver transplants too guess where that leaves you? oh yea, dead!"

♥

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:52 PM. Reason : ^what they said!]

[Edited on October 22, 2009 at 7:53 PM. Reason : ahahahaha...I'm the 49th post, with fucking words. ]

10/22/2009 7:52:40 PM