2

^^
I do. Where did I say that people shouldn't be free to think how they want to think?
Just because someone is free to think something, doesn't mean they're right, or that I can't point out that they're wrong...

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:15 AM. Reason : ]

8/8/2009 9:14:49 AM

Quote :

"i dont understand all the hatred towards people who believe in a higher power. if its not hurting you then why all the disdain?"

I have absolutely no problem with people who chose to believe. I'd rather just be left out of it.

However, the disdain stick swings both ways. When asked by the Economist, only 5% of Americans would admit to refusing to vote for an otherwise qualified presidential candidate simply because he was black. On the other hand, 53% say they would refuse to vote for a similarly qualified atheist candidate.

Quite frankly why shouldn't you expect to be challenged when you voice your opinion in public? What makes religion exempt from the same challenges of debate that apply to every other belief that we hold?

8/8/2009 9:16:29 AM

^^but that's the thing: you can't prove that they're wrong any more than they can prove that you're wrong. as long as they aren't the busybody type trying to get into things that aren't their business, I don't see what all the disdain and arguing is for.


^I think my problem with it is more of the issue of the tone of the challenging. The "anyone who believes in God must be an idiot, it's clearly evident that there's no way in hell that God exists" tone that most atheists/agnostics take bothers me. When it's just an intellectual discussion, that doesn't bother me.

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:21 AM. Reason : again, i suppose I'm best described as agnostic, as I simply don't know. ]

8/8/2009 9:17:27 AM

Quote :

"However, the disdain stick swings both ways. When asked by the Economist, only 5% of Americans would admit to refusing to vote for an otherwise qualified presidential candidate simply because he was black. On the other hand, 53% say they would refuse to vote for a similarly qualified atheist candidate."

8/8/2009 9:18:02 AM

^^^ and ^i wasn't necessarily talking about either one of you

just like there are some extreme holy rollers who hate anything and everything "ungodly" there are atheists who assume anyone who believes in a higher power are....stupid.

i have a weird, somewhat eccentric view on God that would take a while for me to explain.



[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:23 AM. Reason : yiuiu]

8/8/2009 9:19:40 AM

^^^ There are an infinite number of things I cannot disprove. I chose to shape my life around those things which I believe to be reasonably true.


The problem I have with organized religion is (and I'm borrowing from Hitchens here) that there is this whole clot of people who proclaim that God is this fantastic, unprovable being that we admittedly know little about, but I/We have the answers and if you want to be saved, this is what you must do.

I'm arguing the cons of religion right now, there are pros, but they've been largely lost in the experiential form of religion that has come to dominate the United States in the latter half of the 20th century.

Quote :

"I think my problem with it is more of the issue of the tone of the challenging. The "anyone who believes in God must be an idiot, it's clearly evident that there's no way in hell that God exists" tone that most atheists/agnostics take bothers me."

agreed, actually. However the trend towards, "I can't tell you why I believe but I believe it in my heart because I know Jesus loves me, and that makes me happy" tends to collect a large number of idiots and doesn't lend itself to rigorous intellectual debate.

8/8/2009 9:21:58 AM

^^^ and to be fair, "black" and "atheist" aren't exactly the same thing, although I don't think people should rule out a candidate based on his atheism, unless he's one of the militant, pain-in-the-ass "evangelical" atheist-types.


^ again, I'm with you, I just don't like the view that many agnostics/atheists have of perfectly reasonable Christians (or other religious people). As hard as it may be for some of you to stomach, such a thing really does exist.

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:26 AM. Reason : ]

8/8/2009 9:24:09 AM

no, they aren't, and I wasn't trying to argue that there is some sort of persecution of agnostics or atheists, just that I find it disingenuous for a vast majority of the population to be upset that a vast minority is beginning to question their long held assumptions.

8/8/2009 9:27:39 AM

I wonder what percent of atheists would vote for a qualified evangelical candidate?

8/8/2009 9:30:53 AM

^^no, atheism is a belief system. It's more akin to "capitalist" or "civil libertarian" or "conspiracy nut" or "interventionist" than it is to "black".


^ That's not a fair question either, because "evangelical",--at least the ones you're talking about--represents a special case of Christian, who's religious beliefs and political stances are thoroughly intertwined. It's the exact same reason that I offered the caveat that many people could and should legitimately have reservations about voting for the "militant, pain-in-the-ass evangelical atheist types."

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:34 AM. Reason : ]

8/8/2009 9:31:07 AM

this is one of the most circular arguments ever

8/8/2009 9:32:09 AM

8/8/2009 9:37:53 AM

The act and habit of prayer reminds you of your connection to the divine.

8/8/2009 10:11:14 AM

How about being agnostic?

You believe there is a god, but no human organization can define it.

8/8/2009 10:16:27 AM

Agnostics can neither confirm nor deny the existence of god.

8/8/2009 10:18:33 AM

Everyone's an agnostic, theres just different levels/sides to the denial.

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

8/8/2009 10:20:01 AM

^ I like you, just a little bit.

8/8/2009 10:20:53 AM

I am with TheDuke on this. I like a good conversation about it. I think some atheist/agnostics could be grouped with radical evangelicals in the sense of applying a deaf ear to the discussion. I like talking to people about what they believe. I, honestly, am not absolutely sure about everything that God means to me. I am constantly growing in that myself. I pray because I choose to and for the most part, no one can tell me what to pray for. I don't expect people to know fully about what they believe either. I think belief should have some concrete reasons for why someone thinks that way but I also think a true learner will always have questions and always be digging deeper. Questioning, to me, is the reason for life.

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason : oh...I <3 Joie. ]

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 10:22 AM. Reason : and I <3 Sonia. If I could, I would have her babies. hehe.]

8/8/2009 10:21:20 AM

Quote :

"How about being agnostic? You believe there is a god, but no human organization can define it."

That's not agnostic.

8/8/2009 10:22:39 AM

Quote :

"this is one of the most circular arguments ever"

debates on god tend to evoke this.

8/8/2009 10:51:48 AM

Indeed they do

(start) Do you believe in god?
>define god
>
case 1:god is everything>continue
case 2:god is all this specific stuff that comes from X religeon > goto whole crazy mess that uses this loop as a base
>everything that exists?
>yes
>yes I belive that everything which exists exists
>but do you call it god?
>define god(Goto start)

8/8/2009 11:23:40 AM

Prayer has a rounded edge.

8/8/2009 11:25:19 AM

Quote :

"The problem is, that the simple inability to explain something with our limited understanding of the universe does not automatically mean that it is the work of a god. If I were to claim that magical invisible crystal unicorns were the source of all that was unexplained I would be, rightly, laughed at by pretty much all of humanity. Yet, when someone invokes a god to explain the unexplainable, we nod approvingly. This does not follow logically."

you're right on some levels. the problem is that both religious and scientific institutions are falling short of giving us the real truth. to gain wisdom we must first admit that we all really know nothing. the complexities of our universe span far beyond what religion is willing to admit and that's where they're wrong but we can hardly say simply that God does not exist just because it's the only alternative to the obvious shortsightedness of religion. science has failed to explain our spiritual nature as well and we'll continue to get disinfo from both science and religion until we start to realize the lies.

8/8/2009 3:41:02 PM

i think there is a difference between being spiritual and religious

that is what i believe

i can't really explain it. but i know what i mean, so that is all i really care about!

8/8/2009 3:44:53 PM

YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER

8/8/2009 3:46:23 PM

^^i agree

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 3:46 PM. Reason : ^]

8/8/2009 3:46:35 PM

I never knew there were so many Doors fans. That song isn't even on any of the greatest hits albums or anything, either (at least none of the common ones that I'm aware of), so I'm surprised that so many people know it.

8/8/2009 3:48:56 PM

prayer may not have an answer, but I'd say it has a point for people that do it

for those that don't, of course there's no point

8/8/2009 3:51:29 PM

Quote :

"If God has a plan, then prayer for things to change is useless. The only other purpose would be to give thanks to God, making God narcissistic and vain, which is contrary to God being perfect."

But if I don't believe G-d has a plan, and I don't believe that G-d is perfect, but I still believe G-d exists, then its ok that I still pray, right?

What prayer is best for is telling someone else who believes in prayer that you are praying for them or their family member/friend/etc, whether or not you are actually doing it. Just the thought in someone else's mind can have some real healing power, lifts emotions and heightens the will.

8/8/2009 3:55:12 PM

i don't really pray. like i said, i think i am spiritual and not religious. that doesn't make sense to everyone, though.

however, if someone tells me they are praying for me, i don't mind. i'm not going to be like "don't waste your time." it is nice to know people are at least thinking about me (or were, when i was going through some shit). and in my case, i knew it wasn't going to hurt, so why not let people pray.

on the other hand, it is pretty frustrating when people pray and pray and pray for someone and that person is good and completely not deserving of suffering but they suffer anyway and the prayer "doesn't work." i know just because i don't think it worked doesn't mean it didn't (is what some might say), but i'm just saying. its a little disconcerting when people tell me that we suffer so that we can know god's eternal/true love.

and has been mentioned before when people just pray instead of actually doing something, i get even more frustrated. like, no i don't volunteer, but i prayed today so i've done my duty for humanity.

it sucks but i grew up in a church where i saw a lot of hypocrisy so i think that is where my disdain for organized religion comes from. people think they are all high and mighty because they go to church and omg everyone sees them there each sunday! but then when it comes down to actually implementing their church values into their daily lives, they don't. but its ok. because they have confessed to be sinners and go to church.

my view of religion (namely christianity) is obviously really skewed. i know it isn't like that for everyone so i'm not trying to look down on other people in this thread, i'm just trying to explain how i feel about it.

i can echo the posts of everyone else saying they enjoy thoughtful discussion on the topic. i'm not trying to change anyone's minds about anything, but it is definitely interesting to see what others think and why they think it.

8/8/2009 4:03:30 PM

^i've been talking about a lot of that same stuff with my mom recently. i can't stand it when people will talk about how they pray for things and sit back and expect things to come to them. you have to be pro-active and i feel like the majority of religious people take on this victim mentality. they don't really take responsibility for themselves they expect something to come and save them when actually the real power is in all of us.

also i feel that prayer can have the potential to be dangerous if people don't know who they're really praying to. there's a lot of energy that gets channeled on "sunday".

8/8/2009 4:29:02 PM

You don't pray for G-d to make things happen, you pray for G-d to give you the strength to make it happen

-Jewish proverb

8/8/2009 4:30:48 PM

Quote :

"you're right on some levels. the problem is that both religious and scientific institutions are falling short of giving us the real truth. to gain wisdom we must first admit that we all really know nothing."

I agree 100%. I see a real danger in elevating science to a religion. That is already taking place somewhat in the climate change debate. Doubt and questioning essential to the collection of real knowledge.

Quote :

"Just the thought in someone else's mind can have some real healing power, lifts emotions and heightens the will."

Perhaps. But this is not prayer. This is, in effect, visualization, which requires no deity.

8/8/2009 6:38:58 PM

is this a real discussion even though it's in chit chat? if so i'll post what i put in another thread...

Prayer is integral to the life of a believer. It has nothing to do with passing along information to God, because - even as the antagonists seem to understand in all their sarcasm - He knows all. It is a crucial part in the maturation of a Christian - it is a conduit straight to God in which we are to continually praise Him, thank Him, confess our sins, and ask for His help and guidance. It keeps us focused on His will and on our dependence on Him. Prayer is also COMMANDED by God in the Bible:
"Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus." -I Thessalonians 5:16-18
"With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints" -Ephesians 6:18

God will answer our prayers, IF they are according to His will. The Bible does not specify whether he answers the prayers of unbelievers, but it is clear on this: if you are praying with the right motives, He answers you, and if not, He doesn't. If you are a true Christian, your prayers will probably aligned with God's will, and hence your prayers will be answered (with adoration and praise, thankfulness, confession of sin):
"This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." -I John 5:14
"If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear; but certainly God has heard; He has given heed to the voice of my prayer. Blessed be God, Who has not turned away my prayer Nor His lovingkindness from me." -Psalm 66:18-20

However, if you are living in sin and are unregenerate, then your prayers will most likely be selfish and misguided and therefore most likely won't be aligned with God's plans and they won't be answered.
"You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures." -James 4:3
"But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." -Isaiah 59:2
"He who turns away his ear from listening to the law, Even his prayer is an abomination." -Proverbs 28:9
"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." -Philippians 4:6-7

The answers are always in the Word

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 1:10 AM. Reason : ]

8/9/2009 1:08:48 AM

8/9/2009 1:26:07 AM

Quote :

"ps- i dont understand all the hatred towards people who believe in a higher power. if its not hurting you then why all the disdain?"

I don't hate believers. In fact, I know some great people that I care about and love that are believers. That doesn't make the belief itself worth respecting. You believe in a God that allegedly wants us to kill gays. He treats sex, and the human body, as a shameful thing. He is a cruel, immoral God, if anything in the bible is true. He setup this entire universe as a test to see if we, as people, deserved to go to heaven. And the only way to go to heaven? Accept Jesus Christ as lord. If you don't? You burn in hell for all eternity. You have to wonder why God created such an imperfect species that was doomed to fail from the get go.

I'm sorry, but if you'd actually read the bible, and believed in it, you'd know that. Even if you could prove to me that the God of the bible exists, I wouldn't worship him. He's clearly not worth worshiping. Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that beliefs matter. Beliefs inform actions. Evangelicals try to force shit on society in the name of God. It's not just a happy world where everyone keeps their beliefs to themselves and nothing really matters.

Also,

Quote :

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? Then he is not benevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him "God""

Quote :

"the problem is that both religious and scientific institutions are falling short of giving us the real truth. to gain wisdom we must first admit that we all really know nothing."

No, no, no. Science is our best understanding of our reality. To say otherwise is to not actually understand science. The problem is, we don't...really know nothing. There are some things that we do know. If you take an object and release it, it'll drop to the ground. If you take one object, and add another object, you'll have two objects. There are some thing that we simply know to be true. You could make the brain in a vat argument, but how is that even remotely useful?

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason : ]

8/9/2009 10:16:52 AM

Quote :

"You believe in a God that allegedly wants us to kill gays. He treats sex, and the human body, as a shameful thing. He is a cruel, immoral God, if anything in the bible is true. He setup this entire universe as a test to see if we, as people, deserved to go to heaven. And the only way to go to heaven? Accept Jesus Christ as lord. If you don't? You burn in hell for all eternity. You have to wonder why God created such an imperfect species that was doomed to fail from the get go. I'm sorry, but if you'd actually read the bible, and believed in it, you'd know that."

Where does the Bible tells us to kill gays? God is the judge, not us. He is absolutely clear on that in the New Testament. Just read through Romans...Romans 1, He is calling out all of mankind as sinners in what we as humans would think of as sin (Rom 1:26-31 - which specifically INCLUDES homosexuality by the way). Then immediately in Rom 2:1 what does Paul say? "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? We are all in the same boat of sin, on the same path to destruction. So God will judge, and we are to treat everyone equally, with LOVE, not hate.

The universe is no test. Man was perfect because...why? We were created in God's image! God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. - Genesis 1:27 More examples of that: Gen 9:6, Rom 8:29, Colossians 3:10, James 3:9. But God didn't create robots either, we could think and choose and we chose to sin. And sin is why we are "doomed to fail." It is why Christ had to come, to die on the cross as a propitiation for our sins. And then, how do most of us respond? To say "we deserve better" and spit in God's face, and continue to live in our fleshly desires. And yet He still loves us and will save us if we are willing to turn from that and accept Him. It is amazing.

He treats sexual IMMORALITY as a shameful, not sex. It is to be between a husband and wife as a reflection of love for one another, and in that regard it is a beautiful thing. (Proverbs 5:15-19, Gen 2:18, Song of Solomon 4:9-11) Clearly those verses are not speaking of sex as shameful. But sex outside of marriage is pure lust, which is sin. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. -I Thessalonians 4:3-8 (See also Galatians 4:8, I Cor 6:12-20, Heb 13:4, Col 3:5) Over and over and over, the Bible speaks to the destructiveness of sexual immorality. Do we really need to be convinced of that looking at the success rate of marriage in today's society? To live in it is to be enslaved to sin, enslaved to our bodies. But as a Christian you are not to let your body control you, because your mind is renewed with the Spirit (Ephesians 4:22-24).

8/9/2009 5:19:24 PM

it does for me

8/9/2009 6:16:13 PM

Quote :

" God will answer our prayers, IF they are according to His will. The Bible does not specify whether he answers the prayers of unbelievers, but it is clear on this: if you are praying with the right motives, He answers you, and if not, He doesn't. If you are a true Christian, your prayers will probably aligned with God's will, and hence your prayers will be answered (with adoration and praise, thankfulness, confession of sin): "This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us." -I John 5:14 "If I regard wickedness in my heart, the Lord will not hear; but certainly God has heard; He has given heed to the voice of my prayer. Blessed be God, Who has not turned away my prayer Nor His lovingkindness from me." -Psalm 66:18-20 However, if you are living in sin and are unregenerate, then your prayers will most likely be selfish and misguided and therefore most likely won't be aligned with God's plans and they won't be answered."

this is just too black and white for me to accept. isn't EVERYONE living in sin as we are ALL human? i don't really get the whole "god's plan" thing either. so god's plan is sometimes for people to suffer incredibly? and if people ask him to relieve their suffering, it is selfish and therefore not according to his plan? or if you pray for them to have the strength to get through the suffering - how do you even know if your prayer is answered? i guess the whole black and white "right" and "wrong" aspects of religion really get to me.

and i also don't understand - if WE aren't the judge, then why do we go around judging sinners and people that aren't living "according to god's word" and condemning lifestyles. if a sin is a sin why aren't we out slandering everyone who has said a bad word, who worships a sports team, who has had sex out of wedlock, an affair, a divorce, people who have lusted or been jealous, greedy, etc. why do we proclaim some sins as "worse" than others when we are taught that we are ALL sinners? and if it is up to god to judge, then why are so many religious people so judgmental?

these are all honest questions, not trolling. some religious people i know including ^ seem more down to earth. they don't seem as judgmental of others (at least not in a holier than thou religious way) and they seem to admit that they aren't perfect. so i respect those people and their beliefs. but i think that a lot of religious people see themselves as better than others or above others. that just doesn't seem to align with whatever christian beliefs i have been exposed to (you know, love thy neighbor as thyself and all that good stuff)

8/9/2009 6:31:36 PM

Quote :

"No, no, no. Science is our best understanding of our reality. To say otherwise is to not actually understand science."

science still only gives us a portion of the truth. there is a lot they're keeping from the public, believe me. there's a reason for the secrecy and that's to continue this system of power and control. to think otherwise is to not actually understand the nature of the world we live in presently.

8/9/2009 6:34:58 PM

^^yea thats what gets me, some of my extended family is southern baptist, extremely religious but yet are the most racist, homophobic people I have ever met.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 6:35 PM. Reason : H]

8/9/2009 6:35:02 PM

Quote :

"no, atheism is a belief system"

How did I miss this gem? Atheism is not a belief system. It's a rejecting of a specific, unfounded claim - God. That's all.

Quote :

"Where does the Bible tells us to kill gays? God is the judge, not us. He is absolutely clear on that in the New Testament. Just read through Romans...Romans 1, He is calling out all of mankind as sinners in what we as humans would think of as sin (Rom 1:26-31 - which specifically INCLUDES homosexuality by the way). Then immediately in Rom 2:1 what does Paul say? "Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? We are all in the same boat of sin, on the same path to destruction. So God will judge, and we are to treat everyone equally, with LOVE, not hate."

Leviticus 20:13. If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Or am I interpretting it wrong? And yes, I'm aware that you think God is the judge - that's the problem. If he judges homosexuality as a sin, then he is an immoral God. If he created those people, he created them gay. Or are they all just lying? Is it just a big conspiracy to spit in the face of Jesus Christ, and they're not really attracted to the same sex naturally? That makes plenty of sense. See, this is one of my big problems with Christianity. You try to setup a scenario where "everyone is a sinner," and it's okay for you to cast judgement (on behalf of God), since you're also a sinner. If you want to call yourself a sinner, that's fine, but don't try to bring the rest of us into the mix.

Is it really all that satisfying to believe that you're inherently evil and unworthy of God's love? I'm so glad that I've been liberated from the chains of religion, and I can simply enjoy this short life for what it is, rather than wasting my time at church every Sunday being told what a terrible person I am. The bible is worthless as anything except fiction. Using it as a moral guide is ridiculous, and an honest examination of the bible would reveal that, even to a Christian.

Quote :

"The universe is no test. Man was perfect because...why? We were created in God's image! God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. - Genesis 1:27 More examples of that: Gen 9:6, Rom 8:29, Colossians 3:10, James 3:9. But God didn't create robots either, we could think and choose and we chose to sin. And sin is why we are "doomed to fail." It is why Christ had to come, to die on the cross as a propitiation for our sins. And then, how do most of us respond? To say "we deserve better" and spit in God's face, and continue to live in our fleshly desires. And yet He still loves us and will save us if we are willing to turn from that and accept Him. It is amazing."

You say man was perfect - then he sinned. You realize what that means, right? Man wasn't perfect to begin with. If he was, then he would not, by definition, have had the ability or the desire to sin. I know you have the ability to reason through this, and even if you don't admit it to me, at least admit it to yourself - humans have never, ever been perfect.

Quote :

"He treats sexual IMMORALITY as a shameful, not sex. It is to be between a husband and wife as a reflection of love for one another, and in that regard it is a beautiful thing. (Proverbs 5:15-19, Gen 2:18, Song of Solomon 4:9-11) Clearly those verses are not speaking of sex as shameful. But sex outside of marriage is pure lust, which is sin. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you. -I Thessalonians 4:3-8 (See also Galatians 4:8, I Cor 6:12-20, Heb 13:4, Col 3:5) Over and over and over, the Bible speaks to the destructiveness of sexual immorality. Do we really need to be convinced of that looking at the success rate of marriage in today's society? To live in it is to be enslaved to sin, enslaved to our bodies. But as a Christian you are not to let your body control you, because your mind is renewed with the Spirit (Ephesians 4:22-24)."

A correct reading of the bible will reveal that any sex outside of marriage is sinful, yes. This is just a basic disagreement. I don't think there's anything wrong with sex outside of marriage. If the right precautions are taken, it hurts no one, and improves your life. Obviously, the rest of your quote is just preaching. We disagree on the entire premise of your argument, which is that anyone should care what a 2000 year old made-up God has to say about sex.

Quote :

"science still only gives us a portion of the truth. there is a lot they're keeping from the public, believe me. there's a reason for the secrecy and that's to continue this system of power and control. to think otherwise is to not actually understand the nature of the world we live in presently."

This statement is completely baseless. What are "they" (scientific institutions) keeping from us? You apparently have some kind of insider knowledge that I should just blindly believe in, so let's shed some light on it. The whole point of science is that you can replicate results in a controlled experiment, 100% of the time. All science is built upon the scientific method; it's our way of understanding the world. That's it. I mean, this is a college messageboard...you should have had to take some science courses, at some point.

Here's a question for any Christians: Do you personally believe that I deserve to go to hell? I'm not asking what you think your God would say. I want to know what you would say.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 8:06 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2009 7:38:32 PM

^^,^^^^ Both excellent points. And those are EXACTLY the kinds of questions that need to be directed toward professing Christians. If God says that He is the judge, then who are we to go around judging others? We're NOT. False teachings are abound in the world because they do not draw their authority from the Word of God. "Religion" is nothing more than sets of rules and guidelines created by MAN. A set of traditions that supposedly should go unquestioned. But if man is inherently evil (Rom 3, Rom 6), then who are we to say how we should conduct ourselves? It is precisely this reason that Luther separated from the Church and started the Protestant Reformation. Any "religion" that practices outside of the realm of Scripture will lead their flock astray.

Today we are seeing it again inside the Protestant Church. Cultural and lifestyle accomodation. A "can't we all just get along?" attitude. Sin is being accepted and even practiced within the church. God's Word has taken a backseat to how we (as humans) think we should follow it based on today's society. I John talks about how rampant false teachings will be in the end days. This from II Timothy 3 - "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power;" How does THAT compare to our world today?

But to address the questions: suffering - yes, it is a fact of life. We will all suffer on this earth because of sin - that includes Christians and non-Christians alike. The difference is Christians use those experiences to draw us closer to God and in turn strengthen our faith once we get through it. Moreover we look forward to the time when we are with Christ and suffering will be no more. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. -Romans 5:3-5 Also see James 1.

Why do we proclaim some sins worse than others? The short answer is we shouldn't. This is exactly the reason for so much hypocrisy among professing Christians - "Well YOU do this and I don't, so you are more in need of God than me!" A murderer has the same opportunity for salvation as a pastor - both are equally lost before they acknowledge sin and come to Christ. Jesus himself granted salvation to a criminal who was being crucified with him because he believed (Luke 23:42).

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 7:42 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2009 7:41:21 PM

Quote :

"and i also don't understand - if WE aren't the judge, then why do we go around judging sinners and people that aren't living "according to god's word" and condemning lifestyles. if a sin is a sin why aren't we out slandering everyone who has said a bad word, who worships a sports team, who has had sex out of wedlock, an affair, a divorce, people who have lusted or been jealous, greedy, etc. why do we proclaim some sins as "worse" than others when we are taught that we are ALL sinners? and if it is up to god to judge, then why are so many religious people so judgmental?"

no one should be judging another person. when it comes down to it, its between you and God. but maybe I am wrong I do believe between disapproving of ones life style is a lot diff then condemning ones lifestyle.

Also affair falls under the 12 commandments, I am not an expert but some sins are worse then others. and yes everyone on earth is a sinner. But there are degrees of sinners and one person could sin more then others and that I do believe will matter in the end. not so much the sin but a true reflection of that persons ability and understanding how their sins have hurt God.

ie. if a both a killer and a thief went before God and the killer asked for forgiveness and the thief did not then the thief is the bigger sinner.

Quote :

"Christ wants all of us to ask His divine forgiveness and experience the conversion of heart that He offers."

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 7:58 PM. Reason : i hope i made sense, i prob. didn't though. lol. oh well. ]

8/9/2009 7:55:34 PM

d357r0y3r, you posted just before I posted my last one, but I hope you read through it...specifically regarding "religion." To answer your question about Leviticus, you did not interpret it wrong. However that law (Old Testament Law) was written for the time before Christ. New Testament Law, after Christ's death and resurrection, is how we are to govern ourselves today. That doesn't mean the OT gets completely thrown out, but it must be taken in context with the NT.

Quote :

"A correct reading of the bible will reveal that any sex outside of marriage is sinful, yes. This is just a basic disagreement. I don't think there's anything wrong with sex outside of marriage. If the right precautions are taken, it hurts no one, and improves your life. Obviously, the rest of your quote is just preaching. We disagree on the entire premise of your argument, which is that anyone should care what a 2000 year old made-up God has to say about sex."

If this is your argument, then there's really nothing more that can be be said by me. You have made up your mind that God is not real. Salvation is a free gift given from God for those who accept it, not from me or anyone else (Ephesians 2:8-9).

But please try to ponder these passages as objectively as you can:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. - Romans 1:18-24

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. -Romans 2:14-16

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." -II Corinthians 4:4

Basically the Bible says that even unbelievers know God's Law in their hearts. Just try to think back to the time when you decided to part ways with God. It was a decision on your part to embrace the world and turn from God. And now sin has completely veiled the truth. So to answer your question: do you deserve to go to hell? Yes. So do I. So does any human being who has ever lived. We all have to make the decision to be free from our own sinful nature through the gift of Christ. Just for a minute, try to set aside your preconceived notions, lift the veil, and please try to objectively think about that.

[Edited on August 9, 2009 at 8:28 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2009 8:27:08 PM

way too much reading itt.

8/9/2009 8:44:30 PM

Quote :

"False teachings are abound in the world because they do not draw their authority from the Word of God."

What exactly is the Word of God to you?

8/9/2009 9:52:17 PM

^^^ I'll ponder them WITH MY DICK YOU FUCKING SCUMVAC.

GET OUT OF HERE WITH THAT TRASH MOTHERFUCKER.

8/9/2009 9:54:07 PM

sorry to bring this back up but i stumbled upon this and felt like sharing it with those that are willing to check it out. pretty interesting that the Qur'an describes human embryology pretty accurately in the 7th century. this is only one small example of scientific truths in the Qu'ran and this video just quickly sums it up, but still interesting stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47N37nC01WI

8/15/2009 1:44:43 AM

Quote :

"Parents in prayer death get probation, some jail (AP) – 1 day ago WAUSAU, Wis. — A judge has sentenced a Wisconsin couple to 10 years probation and 30 days a year in jail for the next six years for praying instead of seeking medical care for their dying 11-year-old daughter. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard sentenced Dale and Leilani Neumann on Tuesday. The jail terms were stayed pending appeals by the couple of their convictions for second-degree reckless homicide in March 2008 death of their daughter, Madeline Neumann. The girl died of complications from undiagnosed diabetes on the floor of the family's home while people around her prayed. Someone called 911 after she stopped breathing. Prosecutors argued the parents should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink."

Well, at least I know that if I ever screw up as a parent I can hide my guilt behind a religious belief

10/8/2009 3:00:56 PM