Quote :

"But at the same time, people want less taxes but more free shit. They want parks, they want good schools, they want well funded emergency services, but they still argue for less taxes. How do they think things get paid for?"

Other than emergency services, the other two items can be solved by private individuals.

1/4/2010 11:44:16 AM

haha you libertarians are so fucking crazy

1/4/2010 11:44:45 AM

Europe has privatized schools. They're the biggest bunch of liberals too. Also, I always hear on the news how much better their schools are compared to ours.

1/4/2010 11:45:35 AM

Yes - if it were accompanied by a roughly equivalent decrease in the amount food is taxed.

1/4/2010 11:45:47 AM

The "environment" is just a tool used to create global socialism.

1/4/2010 11:49:50 AM

No, we already are taxed too much, and taxes are already too numerous and too complicated.

Now, if a private company wants to completely voluntarily implement a fee/incentive, that's fine.

1/4/2010 11:49:51 AM

Quote :

"Fuck trying to educate people and letting them choose, right?"

because obviously people would choose the tax!

^ would you support a 5 cent deposit as opposed to a tax?

[Edited on January 4, 2010 at 11:53 AM. Reason : 2]

1/4/2010 11:52:20 AM

Quote :

"Would I support a tax? No. Would I support each business' discretion in setting a higher price or charging for plastic bags? Absolutely."

i agree with this. aldi already has a fee you pay for every bag you use, and most of Europe does this as well. it really encourages bringing your own bags as well as not getting as much food. i wish the practice of returning carts to the front of the store to get your 50cents back would start here. its sad enough that people cant even walk back to the front of the store to return a cart, much less return it to a cart corral and instead put it on the nearest island

1/4/2010 11:54:37 AM

Quote :

"Now, if a private company wants to completely voluntarily implement a fee/incentive, that's fine."

They wont because

A. That would be business suicide. Everyone would go somewhere else.
B. They don't give a shit about the environment.
C. They get payoffs from the plastic industry.

1/4/2010 11:55:19 AM

^ bingo

1/4/2010 11:56:11 AM

Quote :

"They wont because A. That would be business suicide. Everyone would go somewhere else. B. They don't give a shit about the environment. C. They get payoffs from the plastic industry."

I'm pretty sure Whole Foods gives me a $.10 discount for not taking bags. That's pretty much the same thing as charging $.10 for using bags. I don't see a lot of people sweating it.

1/4/2010 11:57:25 AM

Ten cents off your order is a lot less effective than 5 cents per bag.

1/4/2010 12:02:40 PM

tax? not really (though i wouldn't complain)

it'd be better if the businesses chose to charge everyone $0.25 or something

1/4/2010 12:03:15 PM

It's funny because you people would fucking love to live in Europe.

1/4/2010 12:11:58 PM

i didn't bother reading this.....but is it for plastic bags only? or for any bag? Cause if its just plastic bags then i'll get paper bags.

1/4/2010 12:14:36 PM

Quote :

"Are any paper or plastic bags exempt from the 5-cent fee? Yes. The fee is only designed to cover bags you receive at the register to hold all of your purchases, in businesses that sell food. So, bags used to hold the following types of items are not subject to the fee: * Bulk items, such as produce, nuts, grains and candy * Frozen foods, meat and fish * Flowers, potted plants or other items where dampness may be a concern * Prepared foods and bakery goods * Prescription drugs * Newspapers and small hardware items * A partially-consumed bottle of wine at a restaurant * Paper bags to take food home from a restaurant that has indoor seating * Trash, pet and yard waste (when sold in a box of multiple bags) * Dry cleaning"

the nickle will be charged for plastic and paper grocery bags and for plastic utensils at restaurants

1/4/2010 12:19:33 PM

Quote :

"It's funny because you people would fucking love to live in Europe."

i've lived in europe and yes, i truly believe they're much more progressive than we are

we're a bunch of rich, spoiled, and inconsiderate douchebags...modern europeans (as a whole) are much more conscious of common sense and decency as they relate to their fellow human beings

1/4/2010 12:30:27 PM

^ Ah, the hackneyed "Ugly American" bullshit. You've must've not met very many Europeans while you were there.

I lived in Europe for nearly three years. And I can assure everyone here that Americans do not have a corner on the market of being "rich, spoiled, and inconsiderate douchebags." One need look no further than a long history of British snobbery; French arrogance (unless their asses were being overrun); and German rudeness--just to address the "common decency" of a few European countries.

1/4/2010 12:50:36 PM

Quote :

"aldi already has a fee you pay for every bag you use,"

hence one of the reasons i've never stepped foot in this place.

1/4/2010 12:55:58 PM

^^1 most of my time was in scandinavia and the european countries just south of that (denmark, germany, poland, czech republic) and i NEVER met a single person that treated me like some dirty tourist...the cities were all hella cleaner than ours and while people smoked (mostly in germany, not so much in the other places), i never experienced it indoors (maybe it's the law there, too, i don't know for sure)...this was 2006-2007

i'm basing my opinion on my experiences...which is about all i CAN do (and they were ALL favorable in regards to european society)

[Edited on January 4, 2010 at 12:56 PM. Reason : carats]

1/4/2010 12:56:45 PM

Quote :

"Would I support a tax? No. Would I support each business' discretion in setting a higher price or charging for plastic bags? Absolutely."

Same here.

Target, for example, gives you a 5c discount for every reusable bag used per order. I do all my grocery shopping there, and I just keep several reusable bags in each car. The 25-30c off is really not much of a big deal to me as far as the savings, but I'm adamantly opposed to giving that much over the cost of my order to the fucking corrupt politicians that run our state.

1/4/2010 1:02:27 PM

^^ Fair enough. I'm just saying that I get tired of that "Ugly American" shit--there are plenty of European assholes over there.



[Edited on January 4, 2010 at 1:04 PM. Reason : .]

1/4/2010 1:04:20 PM

Quote :

"i NEVER met a single person that treated me like some dirty tourist"

Do you treat foreign people that you meet here like dirty tourists? Me either.

1/4/2010 1:14:53 PM

Everyone in America does.



[Edited on January 4, 2010 at 1:16 PM. Reason : IT'S ENGLISH MORANS LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT CLOSE OUR BORDERS]

1/4/2010 1:16:01 PM

IT'S

ENGLISH

MORANS

1/4/2010 1:17:12 PM

Quote :

"Do you treat foreign people that you meet here like dirty tourists? Me either."

just mexicans

1/4/2010 1:18:53 PM

Quote :

"i've lived in europe and yes, i truly believe they're much more progressive than we are "

I fucking hate YOU people. Serious.

1/4/2010 1:22:16 PM

Quote :

"just mexicans"

ditto

1/4/2010 1:24:05 PM

The main reason that I wouldn't support this tax is for the simple fact that once a tax is in place the amount of said tax can be repeatedly raised to suffice any gain in revenue the country/state/city needs in order to implement projects that may not necessarily need implementing in the first place.

You'll start with a 5cent tax and 10 years later it'll be a $1.00 tax that still has no real benefit.

1/4/2010 1:30:17 PM

^Yea? But what about this argument?

Quote :

"But at the same time, people want less taxes but more free shit. They want parks, they want good schools, they want well funded emergency services, but they still argue for less taxes. How do they think things get paid for?"

1/4/2010 1:32:47 PM

and 10 years later, i'll STILL use my cloth grocery bags

1/4/2010 1:33:37 PM

Quote :

"You'll start with a 5cent tax and 10 years later it'll be a $1.00 tax that still has no real benefit."

you don't consider the reduction of waste and (or) the increase in funding to take care of said waste, paid for by those that generate the waste in the first place, a real benefit?

1/4/2010 1:34:48 PM

win-win for everybody

1/4/2010 2:05:56 PM

Quote :

""But at the same time, people want less taxes but more free shit. They want parks, they want good schools, they want well funded emergency services, but they still argue for less taxes. How do they think things get paid for?""

Clearly those things can be paid for using taxes or other means of revenue generation by the governing body. However, that does not in itself justify the establishment of additional forms of taxation. One primary reason is that not all distributed flows of collected tax dollars go towards projects that would intrinsically be viewed as useful or necessary by the majority of citizens, nor are many of the town goods and services provided by the city done at the behest of the citizens. If I decide that you could use a good meal and pick up an Angus Barn dinner for you that does not give me the right to in turn charge you $80.00 for it if you never requested it yourself.

Quote :

"and 10 years later, i'll STILL use my cloth grocery bags"

As would I with or without this tax, but i do not believe that using taxation means that are destined to be waste and are inherently regressive is a good means of promoting others to do so.

Quote :

"you don't consider the reduction of waste and (or) the increase in funding to take care of said waste, paid for by those that generate the waste in the first place, a real benefit?"

The grocery store could choose to use only cloth bags. Why not tax the store if they choose to not use only cloth bags, since the goal of waste reduction would be the same? After all the public wouldn't have access to these plastic bags if the stores didn't cover their products in them. It seems to me the store is more at fault than the purchaser and are the ones "that generate the waste in the first place", as you put it. However, no one would do that because it is a horribly inane idea, and is equally so to charging the public per bag is equally so.

Furthermore, I believe once taking into account the jobs that would be required to monitor the taxed revenue and the efforts made into implementing this process the net funds actually making its way to assisting the environment would be negligible and all that would have been successfully accomplished would be institutionalizing another chain of bureaucracy.

1/4/2010 2:08:11 PM

Quote :

"The grocery store could choose to use only cloth bags. Why not tax the store if they choose to not use only cloth bags, since the goal of waste reduction would be the same?"

i think this is the problem with american thinking (in general) compared to, well, the rest of the world

here, we think the public should take no responsibility for their choices, while the overwhelming idea everywhere else is that we're adults and shouldn't be babied...the problem with that idea is that it requires a corresponding set of beliefs between the government, private business, and the general public and that's nearly impossible to achieve in a place where everyone is concerned only about themselves without taking into consideration anything else

*shrug*

1/4/2010 2:10:40 PM

the idea that landfills are overflowing is blatantly false. plastic bags simply are not that big of a deal unless they are improperly disposed of.

1/4/2010 2:16:35 PM

i just don't get how people think that everything is accomplished by a tax

1/4/2010 2:17:18 PM

i'd have auto insurance even if I weren't required to

1/4/2010 2:17:39 PM

Many of them are.

1/4/2010 2:18:15 PM

Quote :

"plastic bags simply are not that big of a deal unless they are improperly disposed of."

yes, and that's the catch, isn't it? in a world more perfect than this one, people would properly dispose of (recycle, actually) their plastic bags and it wouldn't be a big deal at all

unfortunately, we're stupid and lazy as a whole, and the ONLY time the majority pay attention is when you target their pocketbooks...if you disagree, that's fine...it would make you stupid, though, not to understand something so blatantly obvious

1/4/2010 2:18:44 PM

on a somewhat related note

i was watching an episode of oprah and she didn't even know you could recycle plastic grocery bags

is this common? to not know? i just don't get how people don't recycle them. this is like the easiest thing to recycle. you go to the grocery store anyway, you recycle them at the grocery store. i don't know if it is laziness. i think it might just be stupidity.

1/4/2010 2:20:50 PM

Quote :

"you go to the grocery store anyway, you recycle them at the grocery store. i don't know if it is laziness. i think it might just be stupidity."

a little of column A, a little of column B, and a little of column C

i'm perfectly aware of how to recycle plastic shopping bags, and while i rarely have them anymore, the mass of shopping bags, plastic wrap, and plastic bagging from other things piles up because i forget to put them in my car on a regular basis...it's not laziness or stupidity, it's that i haven't factored it into my daily routine and as such, i don't do it as often as i should

1/4/2010 2:23:08 PM

Quote :

"unfortunately, we're stupid and lazy as a whole, and the ONLY time the majority pay attention is when you target their pocketbooks...if you disagree, that's fine...it would make you stupid, though, not to understand something so blatantly obvious"

I'm stupid because I don't support a completely random tax on a product?

1/4/2010 2:29:20 PM

^^^I'm not surprised about Oprah. It's not like grocery shopping and usage of plastic bags are in her daily sphere. She has someone to do that for her. It's like politicians who don't know the price of a gallon of milk, not really that surprising.

[Edited on January 4, 2010 at 2:29 PM. Reason : ^]

1/4/2010 2:29:31 PM

Quote :

"I'm stupid because I don't support a completely random tax on a product?"

they're not taxing a product, really, they're taxing a luxury item...like how you pay higher taxes for staying at a hotel

or look at it as paying for the added cost of cleaning up improperly discarded plastic bags...in any case, it's not "random," as the use of such bags have additional costs attached to them, costs you currently don't pay (and whether stores end up paying more because they offer bags and then pass the cost onto the consumer with higher food prices, or you pay more for using them, you're going to pay for the added cost of using the product)

1/4/2010 2:32:43 PM

Quote :

"here, we think the public should take no responsibility for their choices, while the overwhelming idea everywhere else is that we're adults and shouldn't be babied"

You couldn't be further from the mark here. The suggestion I posed in no way suggested responsible parties should be held any less accountable than the initial suggestion. In all honesty, the alternative of charging th company (which I still don't support) more directly holds responsible parties accountable since the companies are the ones distributing the bags initially.

Regardless, your proposed idea has less to do with personal responsibility of one's choices and more with limiting the choices. Your solution is to charge people for making a legal decision from a preordained set of options. When you limit one's choices and attempt to force a decision on them then you are ultimately babying them and removing any option of personal responsibility.

1/4/2010 2:34:44 PM

RUserious?

1/4/2010 2:35:33 PM

Support? No.
Whine about? No.
Might it help me remember to bring the reusable bags that I already have? Yes.

1/4/2010 2:37:47 PM

^^Yes. Perhaps you should adequately defend otherwise.

1/4/2010 2:38:26 PM

Quote :

"Regardless, your proposed idea has less to do with personal responsibility of one's choices and more with limiting the choices. Your solution is to charge people for making a legal decision from a preordained set of options. When you limit one's choices and attempt to force a decision on them then you are ultimately babying them and removing any option of personal responsibility."

okay, i used poor wording because that's quite what i meant...i guess my point was that since we obviously aren't making good choices on our own (unless you're saying that throwing away large amounts of non-renewable-yet-very-recyclable is a "good" option), so the government has to step in and make the choice for us...i don't see it as babying so much as good parenting

i DO understand that this falls under the "OMG THE GUBMENT IS TAKING AWAY MY LIBERTIES, WE'RE ALL GOING COMMUNIST!" category that so many people like to throw government regulation into, but i think at some point, stupid/lazy/ignorant people need some maturity and responsibility forced on them

1/4/2010 2:40:19 PM