Hey, look, the "useful" argument. How quaint!

4/13/2010 4:38:01 AM

RAWR RAWR MY MAJOR IS/WAS HARDER THAN YOURS RAWR

4/13/2010 5:31:18 AM

Doesn't matter what your major was as long as you have a job you enjoy at the end.

Quote :

"And I really wouldn't have much of a problem with English engineering majors if it wasn't for the bragging. It gets very annoying after a while."

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 5:40 AM. Reason : .]

4/13/2010 5:38:13 AM

the thing is different people have different skills. Math came easy for me but I've always hated writing papers. Everyone is different and who cares if you majored in English if that's what you wanted to do

4/13/2010 5:42:51 AM

Quote :

"The lack of objectivity does not make the field harder. If anything, I feel that it takes value away from the degree. Think about it, a degree based totally on how other people think you are, where these people got their degree and accreditation based on how other people think they are, and so on."

clearly you are unfamiliar w/ the origins of higher education.

Quote :

"And I really wouldn't have much of a problem with English majors if it wasn't for the bragging. It gets very annoying after a while."

coming from someone who has six posts on page one about how much harder his major is than others'.

4/13/2010 7:17:23 AM

Quote :

"incidentally, I think StillFuchsia did that, or something similar"

Chemical Engineering and World Literature

I basically agree with what Netstorm said, I'll spare you kids the tirade

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 7:40 AM. Reason : ,]

4/13/2010 7:40:29 AM

If you have social skills and can ace an interview, your bachelor's degree is fairly irrelevant. Any smooth talker/moderately attractive person can make a good living in sales or PR. If you want to be a professional poet or novelist, however, go ahead and sign up for food stamps now.

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 7:58 AM. Reason : .]

4/13/2010 7:57:07 AM

Quote :

"If you have social skills and can ace an interview, your bachelor's degree is fairly irrelevant. Any smooth talker/moderately attractive person can make a good living in sales or PR."

this doesn't really apply to english or engineering... so i'm not sure what your point is.

4/13/2010 8:21:05 AM

all i know is i ain't lost a job

4/13/2010 8:22:02 AM

Quote :

"clearly you are unfamiliar w/ the origins of higher education."

Clearly, you aren't aware that the origins aren't relevant to the discussion. Last I checked, the English department actually hands out grades, has teachers who actually tell student information, instead of teaching through a series of questions that would allow a student to logically reach their own conclusion. No. We have a grading system, and with a grading system, there should some sort of objectiveness in it. Something where the "A" is based on more than a professor liking your work.

All you end up with is a bunch of kiss ass students writing pieces that will please the professor.

At least in other majors, a professor can pull out an old test and definitively tell you what you got wrong or right on it. If you said that WWII started in 1492, then you're wrong. There is no question about it. But if a professor pulls out a paper and explains how he didn't like the character development or the plot of a story, that is completely subjective. You could very well have another professor come in, read the same exact story, and assign a different grade for totally different reasons.

So you end up with is a student who writes to appease the professor, as if that's going to make you a better writer.

4/13/2010 12:37:02 PM

Quote :

"So you end up with is a student who writes to appease the professor, as if that's going to make you a better writer. "

Every good writer knows that you write with your audience in mind. Please your target demographic and you'll find success.

4/13/2010 12:38:13 PM

^ But they are writing to appease only one guy. They're not exactly writing to sell their story (although I know some try and so so successfully), but rather to have their work judged by a person, as well as have their classmates judge it too. They're going to school for 4 years of practice.

4/13/2010 12:44:13 PM

^ In Creative Writing classes, peer evaluations can impact your grade, so you're actually writing to please both the prof and students.

And it seems a lot of students from a variety of majors go to school for four years of practice.

4/13/2010 12:46:25 PM

^^NOT THE GOOD ONES.

READING COMPREHENSION.

SOMETHING THAT THESE DUMBASSES YOU LOOK DOWN ON HAVE.

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ,]

4/13/2010 12:47:08 PM

Interesting... Tell us less.

4/13/2010 12:48:58 PM

^^^ I know they have peer evaluations, that's why I mentioned it. But my problem is really with the requirements to get an A, B, C, D and F. To my understanding from what my roommate has told me, the only way to get an F is to just not do the work, and that even "bad" writers end up with a degree. What makes up an "A." What can an "A" student do that a "B" student and below cannot?

^^THEY ALSO HAVE CLARITY, SOMETHING THEY HAVE THAT YOU LACK.

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 12:51 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2010 12:51:20 PM

Quote :

"Clearly, you aren't aware that the origins aren't relevant to the discussion."

it is completely relevant. you said that you think english curriculum invalidates a degree, except it is closer to the spirit of a college degree than a bs in an engineering is.

listen man, we all know that engineers struggle to apply basic calculus for four years, but your struggle doesn't dwarf theirs just b/c the grading system is different.

also, have you never taken an engineering design course? everything is not black and white in engineering, either.

4/13/2010 12:54:03 PM

Quote :

"What can an "A" student do that a "B" student and below cannot?"

It depends on the instructor. I had one professor who thought everything related back to sex. As long as I wrote about sexual innuendos and phallic symbols in literature, I was guaranteed an A. Not everyone knew this about the professor, but I thought it was obvious to gather from his class discussions. He didn't give a lot of As, but I knew how to get them.

English professors are most likely to give As when you write compelling essays on subjects that interest them. Again, know your audience.

It's pretty hard to fail an English class. However, your college GPA really doesn't matter in the long run. At a certain point, it's not really important on a resume.

4/13/2010 12:58:44 PM

Quote :

"you said that you think english curriculum invalidates a degree, except it is closer to the spirit of a college degree than a bs in an engineering is."

Perhaps it's closer to the "original" spirit of a degree. But it's irrelevant now, and even with it being closer, it doesn't somehow make it better.

Quote :

"but your struggle doesn't dwarf theirs just b/c the grading system is different."

Funny how you're getting defensive and attacking engineers, as if I said anything about engineering being superior. I know you read my user info, but I find it funny that everyone else is bringing up engineering, especially those in CHASS. "Trashing" engineering is not a valid defense to another major.

What I do know is that after 4 years, I am able to get a job in a field that I wouldn't be able to do without the degree. A creative writing major would have a difficult time convincing a lot of people of that, especially when you have 17 year old kids getting their books published while also creating a successful franchise.

Quote :

"also, have you never taken an engineering design course? everything is not black and white in engineering, either."

I am taking an engineering design course. But go back and read what I said earlier, and you'll see that I'm not putting down subjectiveness, but rather putting down a degree that is based entirely on subjectiveness, or even a class that's entirely based off of it. There is of course a degree of subjectivity in engineering design courses, but a professor can definitively pull out the report and presentation and point out what is mathematically or technically wrong. If a free body diagram is wrong, then it's wrong. There is no subjectivity in that. If a device doesn't fulfill the request, then it doesn't do so. There is very little subjectivity in that.

4/13/2010 1:04:34 PM

Quote :

"What I do know is that after 4 years, I am able to get a job in a field that I wouldn't be able to do without the degree. A creative writing major would have a difficult time convincing a lot of people of that, especially when you have 17 year old kids getting their books published while also creating a successful franchise."

My degree is in English. I'm a professional writer. While there's a chance I could get my job without my degree, my degree helped me stand out above other job applicants.

4/13/2010 1:09:19 PM

Quote :

"It depends on the instructor."

And that's what devalues the degree.

Quote :

"I had one professor who thought everything related back to sex. As long as I wrote about sexual innuendos and phallic symbols in literature, I was guaranteed an A. Not everyone knew this about the professor, but I thought it was obvious to gather from his class discussions. He didn't give a lot of As, but I knew how to get them./quote] So, the only thing it sounds like you got out of the class, was how to write sex stories? That seems like a waste of a class to me. [quote]Again, know your audience."

And did you really need to go to school for 4 years to get this?

Quote :

"However, your college GPA really doesn't matter in the long run."

It does if you want to go to grad school, which many English majors do because of how little they can do with an undergrad degree in English.

Quote :

"While there's a chance I could get my job without my degree, my degree helped me stand out above other job applicants."

So, were you the only one with a degree? And how you do you know it helped you stand out above the others? And how do you know that you couldn't get the job without a degree, but rather with a really good portfolio?

4/13/2010 1:13:55 PM

If you continue jacking off to yourself, then no one else will want to jack you off. Or maybe you like your dick in your ass?

4/13/2010 1:18:28 PM

Quote :

"So, were you the only one with a degree? And how you do you know it helped you stand out above the others? And how do you know that you couldn't get the job without a degree, but rather with a really good portfolio?"

My boss mentioned it during the interview. She wanted someone with a strong background and interest in writing as opposed to someone who went to school for sociology or religion. I have a great portfolio, but a lot of writers have a great portfolio. My degree helped me stand out during the interview.

4/13/2010 1:20:30 PM

Quote :

"Or maybe you like your dick in your ass?"

Ah yes, let's use homosexuality as a schoolyard taunt.

4/13/2010 1:38:08 PM

Quote :

"Funny how you're getting defensive and attacking engineers, as if I said anything about engineering being superior. I know you read my user info, but I find it funny that everyone else is bringing up engineering, especially those in CHASS. "Trashing" engineering is not a valid defense to another major."

my bs is in civil engineering. i dare say that i am not getting defensive, nor am i in CHASS.

4/13/2010 1:48:48 PM

^^ lol really? really guy?

4/13/2010 2:07:27 PM

Quote :

"To my understanding from what my roommate has told me, the only way to get an F is to just not do the work, and that even "bad" writers end up with a degree."

Are you saying that engineers with the lowest possible passing average don't get a degree? They get one that's just as valid as those with a 4.0, just like the "bad" writers who you seem to misunderstand. Someone who graduates LCW with a C- average may not have demonstrated much creative talent during their undergraduate career, but they have certainly become competent writers, which is more than I can say for a great deal of my friends with degrees in scientific fields.

4/13/2010 2:18:45 PM

ill put this out there

i can all but guarantee i spent less time on hw and school work than i would have if i was an english major.

reading is time consuming yo

i didnt read shit

4/13/2010 2:22:27 PM

Quote :

"lol really? really guy?"

you wanna be a douche? expect to get called out.

4/13/2010 2:24:02 PM

^^ indeed.

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 2:24 PM. Reason : ^]

4/13/2010 2:24:38 PM

are you upset that I'm being a douche to arrogant engineers or you just wanna feel like a victim because your gay? This really has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. Yes well all know your gay, congratulations.

4/13/2010 2:26:16 PM

Ha bullstuff philgrimshoes, my roommated was an engineer and he had a shitload more HW than I ever did

Plus, his bedpost ticker wasn't as high as mine, he couldn't drink as much, and he wasn't as good in Madden as me

So I pretty much reigned supreme in all facets of life

4/13/2010 2:27:52 PM

I realize this thread is about who's major is the most difficult....which is obviously Political Science. Hear me out, maybe I can offer some insight.

I am in outside sales, which is currently salary+commission, but will move into straight commission starting at the beginning of July 2010. I have been in this position since July 2009. I have competition from several direct manufacturing sales reps, large distributors, and local distributors. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each:

Direct Advantages: Immediate knowledge of new technology, no middle man mark up, one shipping bill (paid by manufacturer or buyer of goods), access to larger range of non-commodity items, control inventory, have access to many distributors that can effectively sell their goods which increases market share, and set prices of commodity they manufacture.

Direct disadvantages: Typically have 1-3 sales reps per region (i.e. southeast, mid-atlantic, northeast, etc.) limiting the number of accounts they can successfully manage/cold-call, lack physical customer service or physical technical service available to or affordable for smaller users or altogether, are sometimes not trustworthy because they will go in behind their distributors that sell their commodity to one account in large quantities (i.e. they missed a big account, and have found out about it through a distributor selling their particular product) which leads to the distributor not selling their product anymore, have too many distributors selling the product ultimately driving the set price down through deviations, possibly rely on distributors to actually sell the product, and competition from other direct sources.

Large distributor advantages: have access to other commodities that go hand in hand with other manufacturers (poor example- grocery stores sell milk as well as cereal), get direct pricing, many locations regionally or nationally easing the shipping burden of buyers with multiple locations, personal service either customer or technical, many sales reps that are able to cover a broader territory, access to multiple manufacturers of the same commodity allowing to keep prices in check, service programs that smaller companies can't offer and direct providers can't match in price or value, and experts of many many commodities as opposed to one or a few.

Large distributor disadvantages: smaller local distributors creating price wars (think Michael Scott Paper Co vs Dunder-Mifflin), direct mfg's going in behind and stealing business, limited access to all of the mfg's (you won't find Harris Teeter name brands in Food Lion and visa versa), can't truly set prices because it's based on both supply and demand, territory management, and tough growth prospects in slower economies (this is true for direct as well really)

Local distributor advantages: Typically a good ol' boy setting where the seller and the buyer know each other for years (this does happen at all levels, but mostly at the local level), local folks are right down the street and can be used in emergencies, if the local guy buys at high enough volumes then there is no shipping charge to the end user, and access to both direct mfg's and large distributors.

Local distributor disadvantages: easily beaten in price, array of commodities, array of technology, lack of trained staff, low cash flow, etc etc etc.

This is what I have noticed in my six months, I am sure there are plenty more that need mentioning. The way I am setting myself apart as a sales person is this: I go after the big accounts right now while I am new. The big accounts, if I land them, will take care of me while I am new and building a customer base. The money made off of those allows me to focus free time on smaller accounts that get me higher margins. I build up big accounts, I would like to have 5-10 of these, then get 20-30 medium accounts. If I lose 1 or 2 big accounts, the 20-30 medium accounts keep me afloat while I go after new big accounts. I don't really waste time on small accounts simply because they basically pay for breakfast or something really small.

I will say this, if you can't get a big account in the first 6-8 months (assuming you have cash flow that you can ride this long) you could be in a world of trouble. If you can get one, it will really make going after the others a lot more enjoyable and less stressful. It's simply just very exhausting wasting any time on anything other than big accounts in the very beginning. You work just as hard on the medium sized accounts and see 1/3 to 1/36 of the money in my situation.

If you have any other questions, you can PM me. I hope this helps in the slightest!

4/13/2010 2:28:35 PM

Quote :

"are you upset that I'm being a douche to arrogant engineers or you just wanna feel like a victim because your gay? This really has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. Yes well all know your gay, congratulations. "

has nothing to do with me being a victim. you're just using homosexuality as a tool to make fun of someone. it's the moral equivalent of asking if he's a nigger.

you wanna make your point? have some class, sister.


[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 2:29 PM. Reason : quote]

4/13/2010 2:28:41 PM

^^^^ lawl

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 2:29 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2010 2:29:14 PM

I'm pretty sure bmel referred to the person's own dick being their butt... don't really see how that's her making a homosexual joke, but whatever guy

get your panties out of a bunch



in reference to this thread: I think people need to quit bitching about which major is "harder," especially engineers (trust me, I give Eric shit about doing this too)

4/13/2010 2:32:26 PM

In the distance, successful college-dropout-entrepreneurs laugh.

4/13/2010 2:38:09 PM

^ Eric's old frat brother dropped out and is now making bank as the CEO of a pretty nifty website decided to helping kids find a college that fit them the best

4/13/2010 2:39:22 PM

I'm glad to see that CNR hasn't been dragged into this yet.

4/13/2010 3:23:03 PM

Quote :

"I realize this thread is about who's major is the most difficult....which is obviously Political Science"

This should tell you about the difficulty of English courses that ncsuallday had to work through.

4/13/2010 3:24:42 PM

Quote :

"Are you saying that engineers with the lowest possible passing average don't get a degree? They get one that's just as valid as those with a 4.0, just like the "bad" writers who you seem to misunderstand. Someone who graduates LCW with a C- average may not have demonstrated much creative talent during their undergraduate career, but they have certainly become competent writers, which is more than I can say for a great deal of my friends with degrees in scientific fields."

No, what I am saying is that for English, due to it's subjectiveness in the degree, it's very easy to get a degree. However, in Engineering, you can't get a C average in all the engineering classes and expect to graduate. If you really don't understand the material, the odds of graduating are extremely low, especially in my department where a 2.4 is required to get the degree.

Quote :

"My boss mentioned it during the interview. She wanted someone with a strong background and interest in writing as opposed to someone who went to school for sociology or religion. I have a great portfolio, but a lot of writers have a great portfolio. My degree helped me stand out during the interview."

So, you admit that a degree for your job isn't really necessary. I'm not trying to say that the degree can't help. Just having a 4 year degree, any 4 year degree, can be put you at an edge over those who don't.

But what I am saying is that the degree doesn't really teach you much of anything practical, and because of it's subjectiveness in the degree, it doesn't really tell anyone much of what you know at the end of 4 years. It's certainly not totally worthless. But IMO, it seems like a waste of money, unless you plan on going to grad school.

4/13/2010 3:35:16 PM

Quote :

"If you really don't understand the material, the odds of graduating are extremely low, especially in my department where a 2.4 is required to get the degree."

A 2.4 is a C+ average. Don't tell me you can't skirt by and pull that, especially with the ridiculous curves that exist in some of these classes. I know of a number of engineering majors who would come back with graded exams saying that they were lucky to get away with a 55 because the highest grade in the class was a 62.

What this comes down to is the fact that you don't find value in a major that's not practical. This reminds me of a conversation I had with Jen. I showed her some photos of when Superchunk played the Obama rally in Carrboro, and their kids were there pogoing around on the side of the stage. She said, "They have kids? When are they going to get a real job?" The idea that "practical" is synonymous with "useful" is not an uncommon one.

While you're certainly entitled to that view, it doesn't make humanities work either harder or easier than practical work. My dad has designed racing engines for major manufacturers, but can't write his way out of a paper bag, and I'm just the opposite; neither one of us is better than the other, we just have different skill sets.

4/13/2010 3:45:55 PM

hahaha

ANOTHER thread about which major is the best

4/13/2010 3:52:59 PM

Quote :

"So, you admit that a degree for your job isn't really necessary. I'm not trying to say that the degree can't help. Just having a 4 year degree, any 4 year degree, can be put you at an edge over those who don't."

I did not say that. A degree is necessary for my job. Perhaps you should work on your reading skills.

Quote :

"But what I am saying is that the degree doesn't really teach you much of anything practical, and because of it's subjectiveness in the degree, it doesn't really tell anyone much of what you know at the end of 4 years."

The journalism classes and tech writing classes are extremely helpful. You learn AP style, Dreamweaver, InDesign, PageMaker, PhotoShop ... I could go on with this list, but it's not necessary. English is not all reading.

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 4:00 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2010 3:58:29 PM

Quote :

", what I am saying is that for English, due to it's subjectiveness in the degree, it's very easy to get a degree."

I like where you went with this. My original point which sparked this discussion was that English programs are criticized because subjective grading makes it almost impossible to get an A, that there's nothing formulaic, and to succeed you have to shine above even the best standards. I like how you took this and somehow made it mean that degrees are easy to get.

Quote :

"However, in Engineering, you can't get a C average in all the engineering classes and expect to graduate. If you really don't understand the material, the odds of graduating are extremely low, especially in my department where a 2.4 is required to get the degree."

FYI, grade requirements for major courses in your curriculum are school-wide. So, uh, yea, you can expect to graduate. Lots of people graduate every program at our school with a mediocre concept of what they're actually doing. Why do you think this doesn't apply to all courses?

You recognize that Engineering isn't a singular universal skill, but a layer of different abilities that you use together in one field, but you don't acknowledge that there isn't just "writing". English majors are forced to study backgrounds in extremely varied curriculum and fields--the origins of language, foreign language, technical research and communication, digital evaluation, rhetoric and the art of persuasion, literature (which in itself spans the HISTORY OF HUMAN SOCIETY, covering every historical period, movement, theme, motif, every basic understanding of recorded history)--and even then, no professional writer doesn't go into their work without knowing scientific method, logic (which is heavily covered in rhetoric), competency with technology, and background in science (because a lot of us end up being science writers... ooooh, tricky!) and all the other things which give us the ability and knowledge to write about any of the thousands of subjects or fields we could potentially devote ourselves to.

Quote :

"So, you admit that a degree for your job isn't really necessary. I'm not trying to say that the degree can't help. Just having a 4 year degree, any 4 year degree, can be put you at an edge over those who don't."

Yea, that's exactly what you've been saying. So your basis for saying the degree isn't useful is that it can be used to gain access to a large variety of potential fields of work? Are you fucking insane? In our current economic and career model, do you really think flexibility and competency in multiple fields is a bad thing?

Quote :

"But what I am saying is that the degree doesn't really teach you much of anything practical,"

Of course not.

Quote :

"and because of it's subjectiveness in the degree, it doesn't really tell anyone much of what you know at the end of 4 years."

If the professors and staff and University were chosen at random from your studio audience, then maybe you would even be making a BIT of sense in this argument.

Quote :

"It's certainly not totally worthless. But IMO, it seems like a waste of money, unless you plan on going to grad school."

Do you realize how many of the most successful men and women in the world, people acknowledged on Forbes top CEOs list, public figures are world leaders have backgrounds in Humanities, Social Sciences, and the extremely popular English degree? The problem is that you people are uninformed. You use stereotypes and assumptions to base an argument against something you're not even familiar with. Why? Because you're trying to make your own decisions in life seem the best, and put others down. Your argument has no basis in the logic and reason that your field should have taught you to stick by.

And worse yet, all I hear about is "oh this guy in English I met". Some of the most retarded people I've ever known were in science degrees. Guess what? Mediocrity is everywhere. Get the fuck over it.










Sweet, I totally sparked a discussion on TWW that wasn't just "LAWL UR NOT AN ENGINEER? HUR".

4/13/2010 4:06:04 PM

just gonna chime in that I majored in political science for awhile

but eventually I switched to math, largely because I was sick being graded on subjective standards

this is one of the things I like most about math. if your proof is right, it's right...end of story.

4/13/2010 5:01:56 PM

I would love to see this thread if State had true Film, Music, Art degrees, etc.

4/13/2010 5:23:26 PM

this is a good thread

4/13/2010 5:26:43 PM

Clearly the best major is Spanish. That's a skill that's insourced more everyday.

4/13/2010 5:28:12 PM

<3 that cartoon

my friend has it on his door...he's a number theorist, so he's on top of even the mathematical purity-heap

4/13/2010 5:28:33 PM