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BobbyDigital
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^ um, which one?

there are many denominations, and there are differing views on it.

Catholicism, for example, does not teach that all non-catholics or all non-christians will go to hell.
They also accept evolution.

wheras jimbobs southern baptist church believes everyone not in their congregation is going to burn in hell. and the earth is flat.
and only 8000 years old.

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM. Reason : sdaf]

12/1/2009 3:46:42 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Look Ratty, I've already filled my quota of "Listening to people tell me why some other kind of Christianity is better than mine" for the next billion years. I've got a direct, unbroken line of apostolic succession from today all the way back to when they nailed the Big Guy up. It's good enough for me, and I don't give a copper-plated damn whether it meets your standards.

12/1/2009 3:48:02 PM

moron
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^^ I don't know any mainstream Christian denominations that would acknowledge that you can go to heaven without believing that Jesus is the one true son of God.

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 3:48 PM. Reason : ]

12/1/2009 3:48:15 PM

GrumpyGOP
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To the extent that he spoke for the entire Orthodox Church I don't know, but it was my priest who presented me with the "We know for sure that we get in, we don't know for sure who gets kept out" argument during my conversion. I believe it's still the second-largest denomination, so hopefully that's mainstream enough for you.

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM. Reason : ]

12/1/2009 3:49:20 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"AxlBonBach: Basically, Islam hasn't done what Christianity and Judaism have been so successful at - adapting to the ages to fit the needs of its believers. I'm not talking about "last 30 years," I'm talking about "last 900 years." This has presented a clash within Islam itself, those who wish to move towards a modernized approach (which isn't modernized as we think of it, but modernized in comparison to that which they already observe), and those who absolutely refuse to compromise. You have to consider that Islam really hasn't changed much since the original Imams. No reformations. No renaissance. No age of enlightment. No industrial revolution. This has deeply affected contemporary Muslims.

Not all hardliners are extremists; however, all extremists are hardliners. So it's this problem within Islam that has created the problem, and the solution is not likely to come from anywhere else but within Islam."



Nice.

Very true, realistic, and practical post.

12/1/2009 3:50:36 PM

jprince11
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well islam is the only religion causing mass violence right now so thats a huge minus ten points against them

but whether the vast majority of them that aren't terrorists really believe in peace or just secretly condone all the violence I just don't know and that's the real question

12/1/2009 3:51:08 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"well islam is the only religion causing mass violence right now so thats a huge minus ten points against them"


The bloodiest war since WWII is going on in the Congo right now, and unless I'm mistaken Islam has nothing to do with it.

Jews in Israel have been contributing to/causing a great deal of violence for years.

Christian factions in Ireland only stopped blowing each other up quite recently, so I'm willing to count them.

12/1/2009 3:53:25 PM

McDanger
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Not to mention Christian-controlled nations that perpetuated (and still perpetuate) brutal colonialism.

12/1/2009 3:55:18 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Still perpetuate brutal colonialism? You'll recall how the inhabitants of the Virgin Islands, the Falklands, and French Guyana are so often described with terms like "blood-soaked" and "brutal."

12/1/2009 3:57:03 PM

McDanger
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Hmm yes let's call corporate imperialism something different and suddenly it'll stop being as bad

12/1/2009 3:58:19 PM

arog20012001
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Quote :
"well islam is the only religion causing mass violence right now"


dude. seriously?

12/1/2009 3:58:22 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Hmm yes add the word "imperialism" to every bad thing happening around the world and suddenly it'll be the same as when TERRITORIES WERE VIOLENTLY CONQUERED AND SUBJUGATED BY OUTSIDE FORCES.

But now that I think on it I have allowed this conversation to drift considerably from the topic.

12/1/2009 4:01:36 PM

Rat Soup
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Quote :
"Catholicism, for example, does not teach that all non-catholics or all non-christians will go to hell.
They also accept evolution."


i was born and raised catholic and went to catholic school for 12 long years. i know just about everything there is to know about the church (which is also why i chose to stop following it), and i can't recall hearing anything to the contrary of peoples' fate being less than ideal by not accepting the god of christianity. that isn't to say i could be wrong though. it might've been taught one day when i was asleep in class.

Quote :
"Look Ratty, I've already filled my quota of "Listening to people tell me why some other kind of Christianity is better than mine" for the next billion years. I've got a direct, unbroken line of apostolic succession from today all the way back to when they nailed the Big Guy up. It's good enough for me, and I don't give a copper-plated damn whether it meets your standards."


uh, nice attitude, dick. i wasn't trying to tell you that some other kind of christianity is better than yours, because frankly GrumpyGOP, i could care less what issue of christianity you subscribe to, although it sounds like catholicism with your "unbroken line of apostolic succession from today all the way back to when they nailed the Big Guy up." i was just pointing out that christianity as a whole generally gravitates towards the argument of "if you don't accept the one true god (as if anyone really knows which one it even is), you ain't comin to the party."

12/1/2009 4:01:46 PM

moron
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Quote :
"To the extent that he spoke for the entire Orthodox Church I don't know, but it was my priest who presented me with the "We know for sure that we get in, we don't know for sure who gets kept out" argument during my conversion. I believe it's still the second-largest denomination, so hopefully that's mainstream enough for you."


That seems like a pretty reasonable position, but i've been to all kinds of protestant churches, and If I were to try and say that maybe so-an-so-whos-not-really-Christian might go to Heaven, I can't imagine receiving anything but dirty looks; but it's starting to be apparent to me that perhaps this is because of the religious environment I grew up in. Not to mention this view doesn't seem present at all in the Palin/Huckabee/9-12/birther types we see on TV. Considering this, I think my disbelief that there are large amount of Christians out there who believe that non-Christians too might go to heaven is reasonable.

12/1/2009 4:04:08 PM

BobbyDigital
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Quote :
"and i can't recall hearing anything to the contrary of peoples' fate being less than ideal by not accepting the god of christianity."


go read the catechism. the cliffs notes on it are what grumpygop described.

12/1/2009 4:04:12 PM

wdprice3
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Religious differences breed hate and violence. Nearly every religious group has crazies that are killing people and to what extent changes with the times. Right now, I'd say the religion to fear the most is Islam, as Islamic extremists are showing just how far they can reach... hundreds of years ago it was the Christians. However, in more specific locales (such as regions or countries) other religions may be more worth of fear... but on the wordwide scale for today, I'd have to go with Islamic extremists.

12/1/2009 4:06:06 PM

moron
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GrumpyGOP is Eastern Orthodox, IIRC.

12/1/2009 4:06:27 PM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"i wasn't trying to tell you that some other kind of christianity is better than yours"


Sorry, you were trying to tell me that my kind of Christianity wasn't as Christian as others. Whatever. Boo-hoo-hoo I was raised Catholic and I didn't like it.

^Yeah.

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 4:07 PM. Reason : ]

12/1/2009 4:06:45 PM

Stimwalt
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Muslims believe in the immaculate conception?
(True or False)

Muslims believe Jesus is a true prophet and will descend from Heaven when Allah brings the world to an end?
(True or False)

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, and instead ascended into Heaven directly, and the man that was nailed to the cross was not actually the prophet Jesus?
(True or False)

The story of the Annunciation, when the angel Gabriel came to announce that Mary would bear a son while yet a virgin, is affirmed in the Koran?
(True or False)

The virgin birth of Jesus is an article of faith in Islam?
(True or False)

Muslims revere Mary in the Koran, and devoted an entire chapter to her?
(True or False)

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 4:16 PM. Reason : sp]

12/1/2009 4:12:28 PM

Rat Soup
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Quote :
"go read the catechism. the cliffs notes on it are what grumpygop described."


we studied the catechism senior year in high school. guess i was asleep that day after all.

Quote :
"Sorry, you were trying to tell me that my kind of Christianity wasn't as Christian as others."


not really. i was coming more from this angle

Quote :
"i was just pointing out that christianity as a whole generally gravitates towards the argument of "if you don't accept the one true god (as if anyone really knows which one it even is), you ain't comin to the party.""


i'm not trying to get up in your face about your religion and what you believe and tell you what's better. like i said, i could give 2 shits about what you choose to delude yourself with. whatever helps you sleep at night is fine by me. i'm just pointing something out for the sake of the argument. no need to take offense where none was intended.

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 4:18 PM. Reason : .]

12/1/2009 4:14:04 PM

BobbyDigital
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Quote :
"GrumpyGOP is Eastern Orthodox, IIRC."


right, i didn't say otherwise. I just said that what he described is a good summary of what catholicism teaches on that point. You know that certain beliefs can overlap, right?

12/1/2009 4:14:26 PM

0EPII1
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Stimwalt: True to all

12/1/2009 4:25:57 PM

punchmonk
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Quote :
"If you think there is a reasonable chance that God wouldn't see things this way, why wouldn't your belief then be that Jesus might be the way, or might not be the way?"


I don't necessarily believe what GrumpyGOP believes bc I do believe that Jesus is the way and no one else.
I don't know how to tell you differently, moron, than, I serve and devote myself to a God that is absolute and truth, imo, and I go by the bible (to which I question ALL THE TIME bc men inspired by God wrote it) that talks of Jesus. I do believe that he is a higher being and quite frankly I have a hard time even putting the thought of God into human terms bc I believe that does take away from what God stands for. I think he is ultimate love and I want to follow that completely. I decided, since I am going to follow him, that I will try my damnedest to follow what he talks about. I do believe he sets a standard to follow and we get that from the bible. But I also don't want to forget what history teaches us too so I also study that. As far as God goes, I understand that he can do whatever the hell he wants so if I am going to follow that, then I need to be in it completely and whole heartedly. I believe the only way I can have a friendship or daughter-ship with GOd is through Jesus. No longer being illegitimate but actually taking part in God's family. Yes, I believe I am a saint, now.

To be honest, I see me being a christian that was once bound to sin and fruitlessness and is now free from that. I believe that my human condition (at heart is selfish and angry) is now able to think higher and above myself to really grasp love beyond me. And yes, my ultimate goal is to be with God so I will keep sharpening myself with what is taught through the bible but also taught through others. I don't do things now just to be good or right, I do things bc I am grateful for this gift.

I think the whole creation story all through the old testament and then all the way through revelation seems quite silly and I do believe that God uses the present world to make his miracles prevalent.

I do think belief evolves just like everything else. I could be ABSOLUTELY wrong. That is also why I consider myself a historian and I read way more things than just the bible and christian writings.

SHIT, WHEN DID CHIT CHAT BECOME THE SOAP BOX?

I HOPE THIS THREAD GETS BACK ON TOPIC!
I appreciate and do follow some of Islam's principles.

12/1/2009 4:31:39 PM

Stimwalt
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One of them is false, can you guess which one?

12/1/2009 4:35:31 PM

0EPII1
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^ maybe it is a matter of technicality/wording/semantics/syntax, but there are all true as far as i know (and i know more about islam than anybody else on here, save maybe for one or two users).

12/1/2009 4:57:28 PM

elkaybie
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to answer the OP...I don't know much about Islam, but I'm not going to let a few bad apples mess up the whole bunch. There's been plenty of religious groups and other peoples throughout history that have done similar or far worse things than Islam extremists.

12/1/2009 5:09:57 PM

Fermat
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oh thats exactly how it's going to happen make no mistake

12/1/2009 5:41:07 PM

Rat Soup
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in another response to this post by BobbyDigital:

Quote :
"go read the catechism. the cliffs notes on it are what grumpygop described."


grumpygop's cliffsnotes were as follows:

Quote :
"Christian denominations will say that if you believe in Jesus and perfectly follow his teachings as they interpret them, you WILL go to heaven, no question. If you don't, there's a question. Some denominations say the answer to the question is "you're going to hell." Others say they don't know the answer, it's up to God.

In short, Jesus is the way . . . to be 100% sure.

More like, Jesus is the definite way, but not necessarily the only.

It's not so much "Muhammad might work too" as it is "Muhammad might not be a deal-breaker.""


i actually went and found the catechism of the catholic church in the desk where i did homework in high school just to double check all this. after reading it, my understanding of the whole getting into heaven/being condemned to hell dealt entirely in absolutes more so than "well, i guess you COULD get into heaven if you followed the prophet muhammad and allah, but i'm not gonna say it one way or the other. better just accept jesus to be safe," which did not come across as cliffsnotes for the catechism of the catholic church.

"Our attitude about our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love. On the last day Jesus will say: 'Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'"

"When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace." grace being, "the free and undeserved gift that God gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children."

now, this is interesting because the first quotation states that your works alone are an indication of your acceptance of grace and dictate whether or not you accept or refuse god's grace. if you treated your fellow man with compassion, you accepted jesus even if he wasn't what your religion is about and you spent your entire life not once acknowledging or accepting him. the second quotation says according to your works AND acceptance or refusal of grace. it just seems like it's a separate requirement from the first quotation. either that or it's just redundant. but it sounds to me like on the one hand, all you have to do is be a good guy. but on the other, you have to be a good guy AND acknowledge god or there's no deal. it just seems like conflicting arguments.

essentially, since muslims do not believe in the same god as christians due to differences in the display and degrees of his attributes, muslims aren't exactly accepting god's grace as outlined in the tenets of the catholic church in this context. they acknowledge jesus and are cool with him, but they don't accept jesus as the son of god with the ability to judge the hearts of man given to him from the father. it's my understanding that jesus was merely a prophet. logically speaking, no matter how pure and decent a muslim's life is, the tenets of their faith (or any faith other than christianity for that matter) automatically make them ineligible for the requirements to enter the kingdom of heaven according to the catholic church and other christian denominations.

"Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven - through purification or immediately - or immediate and everlasting damnation,"

the teachings on the matter by the catholic church are pretty explicit and not as lenient as grumpygop's explanation. i'm not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about. that's just what his denomination preaches. he never claimed that his explanation was that of the catholic church. the catechism also states that those who die in the "grace and friendship of god," i.e. they accept their vocation to him, but are not "purified," (baptized), will go to purgatory to undergo the purification process after death in order to prepare for their entrance into god's kingdom. that also kind of leaves muslims, hindus, buddhists, shintoists, taoists, etc. shit out of luck.

so in short, the catechism as i interpreted it states that jesus is the only way to get in. there are no other alternatives. feel free to correct me if i'm wrong. i could've misinterpreted, although i don't think i did. for some reason i feel like i may have actually been awake in class the day my nutjob religion teacher went over this shit and said you're screwed if you don't accept jesus, but it was 6 years ago, so i could be wrong. that woman was single handedly responsible for turning a lot of students away from the church though.

and just for the record, i don't follow this shit, so don't misunderstand this as me saying people other than christians are going to hell. i don't even believe in any of it.

12/1/2009 6:32:19 PM

Stimwalt
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The immaculate conception is based upon the Catholic doctrine of Original sin, which Muslims do not believe in.

12/1/2009 6:33:11 PM

0EPII1
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durrr... i confused that with Jesus' Virgin Birth

even wiki says it so:

Quote :
"Her immaculate conception in the womb of her mother, through sexual intercourse, should not be confused with the doctrine of the virginal conception of her son Jesus, known as the Virgin Birth."

12/1/2009 6:45:40 PM

LiLStarlet27
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Quote :
"SHIT, WHEN DID CHIT CHAT BECOME THE SOAP BOX? "


that's almost exactly what i thought. why is all this controversial political shit in this forum?

and not sure if someone said this or not (cuz i didnt read all this thread, just skimmed), but i think coming to TWW was a bad idea if you are seriously gonna work on a project.

12/1/2009 6:50:43 PM

moron
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Quote :
"I don't necessarily believe what GrumpyGOP believes bc I do believe that Jesus is the way and no one else. "


I am still not clear on what you mean by this, in the context of the statement that you don’t believe your muslim friends are going to hell.

Are you saying that you’re okay as long as you believe in Jesus, even if you believe in Jesus along with others?

12/1/2009 7:05:57 PM

AxlBonBach
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Quote :
"
Nice.

Very true, realistic, and practical post."


And from a Southern Baptist nonetheless!

12/1/2009 7:16:47 PM

moron
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Quote :
"Basically, Islam hasn't done what Christianity and Judaism have been so successful at - adapting to the ages to fit the needs of its believers. I'm not talking about "last 30 years," I'm talking about "last 900 years." This has presented a clash within Islam itself, those who wish to move towards a modernized approach (which isn't modernized as we think of it, but modernized in comparison to that which they already observe), and those who absolutely refuse to compromise. You have to consider that Islam really hasn't changed much since the original Imams. No reformations. No renaissance. No age of enlightment. No industrial revolution. This has deeply affected contemporary Muslims.

Not all hardliners are extremists; however, all extremists are hardliners. So it's this problem within Islam that has created the problem, and the solution is not likely to come from anywhere else but within Islam.""


This is not really true. Islam had it’s own Golden Age and was one of the catalysts for the Renaissance in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

I read a very compelling article a few months back that detailed how the modern form of islam that we are most familiar with is an anomaly in the history of Islam that is mostly due to 20th century politics related to the demise of imperialism at the benefit of “spheres of influence" and the formation of modern super powers.

12/1/2009 7:28:16 PM

AxlBonBach
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Quote :
"This is not really true. Islam had it’s own Golden Age and was one of the catalysts for the Renaissance in Europe."


The Islamic Renaissance was from 9th to 13th centuries, according to that wikipedia page. 700 years ago. So, I was off by 200~ years.


Even if i concede the Renaissance (the influence of which is highly debatable even by experts), the point remains the same. There were no schisms, there was no enlightenment, no revolutions, and much of that which developed in the West remained in the West. So, while there was a Golden Age, it was 13th century. The fact that they haven't changed much since then is in and of itself a source of the identity crisis within the faith.

12/1/2009 8:18:36 PM

ambrosia1231
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I haven't read the thread.

That said:

What I think about Islam has had almost no influence from the media. I know what I know from a long-standing fascination with Middle Eastern culture and history. Once I got to college, I met Muslims, and learned more about the religion. I talked with them about their religion, and then I went and read up on it a bunch. I knew a fuckton about hijabs, customs, and the history of Islam long before 9/11, when so many people became interested in it.

I've been on panels regarding women's issues in Islam (as the token non-Muslim ), and will continue to do so.

If I were ever to become an adherent of an organized religion, that religion would be Islam.

But I sure would miss bacon

12/1/2009 8:24:43 PM

DeltaBeta
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^^^ That sounds interesting. Do you have a link?

[Edited on December 1, 2009 at 8:25 PM. Reason : *]

12/1/2009 8:25:24 PM

moron
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^ i will look for it when i get a chance

12/1/2009 8:28:14 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"ambrosia1231: If I were ever to become an adherent of an organized religion, that religion would be Islam.

But I sure would miss bacon and porn "


12/1/2009 8:37:49 PM

jprince11
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Quote :
"The bloodiest war since WWII is going on in the Congo right now, and unless I'm mistaken Islam has nothing to do with it.
"


are you saying that is primarily based on religion or ethnicity/other issues?

12/1/2009 11:50:12 PM

joepeshi
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I think a lot of people are just confused on who/what a Muslim is...and on many occasions wouldn't be able to distinguish a Muslim from a non-Muslim on looks alone.

12/1/2009 11:53:08 PM

ambrosia1231
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Quote :
"I think a lot of people are just confused on who/what a Muslim is"


Oh?

Quote :
"and on many occasions wouldn't be able to distinguish a Muslim from a non-Muslim on looks alone."


Whoa! No shit, man!
Thank heavens we Christianfolk can tell believers apart from non-believers with one glance!

12/1/2009 11:56:36 PM

Big4Country
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Quote :
"by that same logic you can say that the russian orthodox church is not a faith associated with peace because there are russian terrorists who belong to it. it works for any religion that people associated with terrorism follow."


Of course you can. People have already mentioned that violence can be associated with every religion.

Part of the question was how do I receive Islam through the media. Well pretty much everything involving Islam that is in the US media involves terrorism and rioting. When was the last time you saw a news report on peaceful Muslims and what is the ratio of these reports to ones involving terrorism and conflict? With that being said, yes there are Christian groups causing problems in Nigeria and other parts of Africa too. The most common news stories about Islam that I have seen in the press over the past few years though involve 9/11, The Pit at UNC, Fort Hood, and the war we are fighing in the middle east. On top of that I also read an article from July 2009 for my paper about a Muslim extremist group rioting in Nigeria because they want the nation to be ruled by Sharia law.

12/2/2009 12:52:00 AM

joe_schmoe
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TIMOTHY MCVEIGH WAS A CHRISTIAN

therefore,

CHRISTIANS ARE DOMESTIC TERRORISTS WHO WANT TO BLOW UP FEDERAL BUILDINGS

12/2/2009 3:31:36 AM

bdmazur
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^more than that...Irish Catholic

12/2/2009 3:38:23 AM

Nerdchick
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I haven't read the thread so this may have been pointed out but

European countries have a problem with Muslims living in little enclaves and enforcing sharia law and whatnot. Brown immigrants aren't integrated into society so they act like they're still in BFE. In Europe, ethnic identity is tied up with national identity. If you're not white, you're not German/French/etc. It's not happening in America, partly because the Muslim immigrants to America tend to be wealthier and better educated. But Americans are united by an idea, not by religion or ethnicity.

12/2/2009 6:27:32 AM

HockeyRoman
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Islam, Judaism and Christianity are like three brothers fighting for attention from the same daddy.

I, personally, don't mind Islam at all. I just couldn't see myself giving full and complete devotion to Allah at the exclusion to everything else, e.g. environmental preservation (yes, I know this connection will be hard for some of you to grasp).

12/2/2009 6:48:32 AM

JCASHFAN
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lulz, this has turned into a What do you think about Islam? how much better your own beliefs are than others

^^ Solid points there. Broadly speaking, when devout (though not necessarily fanatical) Muslims are confronted with a world which does not wholly accept them and whose beliefs are radically different from their own, the natural human tendency is to circle the metaphorical wagons and pursue your faith that much more deeply. So you can't really fault Islam specifically with this.

OTOH, I don't think the solution is tolerance and inclusion to the detriment of the generally accepted secular Western values hashed out in the 18th century.

The Holocaust tends to wash out any preceding Jewish history in Europe but I'd be interested in knowing if there was any Jewish radicalization in 18th and 19th century Europe.

12/2/2009 7:55:21 AM

NCstAteFer
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^You're dumb as a brick.

On another note, I am quite impressed by some of the posts on here.

12/2/2009 8:26:21 AM

0EPII1
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-->

[Edited on December 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM. Reason : ]

12/2/2009 1:01:31 PM

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