Quote :

"complete devotion to Allah at the exclusion to everything else, e.g. environmental preservation"

Please explain, I am curious. I didn't know anything in Islam advocated destruction of the environment, whether directly or indirectly.

[Edited on December 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM. Reason : ]

12/2/2009 1:01:52 PM

thanks so much everyone for all your contributions, this went much better than i expected

12/3/2009 2:17:02 AM

^^ No, no. It isn't an advocation for environmental destruction per se that I discovered but rather devotion to Allah was first and foremost and everything one did should be towards that goal. What that translated to me was concern for sustainability and preservation of nature didn't matter and if it got in the way of worship to Allah then it should be removed as an obstacle. Please don't take this as a slight against Islam. I am sure it's a great religion, but just can't get my mind (or soul) around a religion that breaks away from our fundamental connection to our natural world. Hell, if you have information to the contrary I would be very keen to read.

12/3/2009 7:00:05 AM

Quote :

"concern for sustainability and preservation of nature"

and the killing of oneself didnt drive this point home to you?

12/3/2009 7:02:01 AM

^ Troll. Suicide is a great sin in Islam.

^^ The Prophet specifically forbade destruction of trees, animals, and nature. He gave this injuction during times of war (because during war, people do crazy things), but his order holds as a general rule. Of course, Muslims today are terrible when it comes to preservation of nature, but anyway, this is about the religion, not its adherents.

Do a google search using terms such as environment, islam, hadith, prophet muhammad, etc.

Here are some things I found with just a cursory look:

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1154235113776&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout
http://blogs.muxlim.com/TorontoMuslim/earth-day-islam-hadiths-of-the-prophet-pbuh-on-the-environment/
http://www.lastprophet.info/en/examples-of-his-behavior/the-prophets-approach-to-environmentalism.html

12/3/2009 9:23:41 AM

I will read over those fully when I wake up this afternoon. Thank you very, very much for the clarification. Much like the teachings of Jesus, it seems that it's the followers and not the message that are at fault. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

For the record, I am still kind of on my Siddhartha-like journey spiritually despite growing up Christian. I in the arduous process of reconciling my strong affinity to the natural world with modern belief structures. The best I've found thus far are Shinto and quite likely my own ancestors' Native American beliefs although, sadly, detailed information is difficult to find.

12/3/2009 10:02:15 AM

My name isn't Islam, but I happen to be thinking about a motorcycle right now.

12/3/2009 11:29:29 AM

<----- exposed

i dont know anything about the religion

12/3/2009 11:30:45 AM

Five Percenters are fucking psycho, but they're probably not recognized by most other Muslims.

12/3/2009 1:18:19 PM

I had no idea that fiver percenters were muslim. I thought they were part of the free masons.

[Edited on December 3, 2009 at 1:28 PM. Reason : t]

12/3/2009 1:28:13 PM

You don't have to skirt around things with Trap or talk to him all apologetically because of any negative feelings toward Islam. He is not a muslim, but was raised one, from what I recall.

12/3/2009 2:10:54 PM

Now that the project is turned in I'm going to share my thoughts:

Most of you are joking around, but some of you aren't and are still saying some very ignorant things about Islam as a whole. Islam teaches that "people of the book" (Christians and Jews) are to be seen as friends as long as there is no interference with religious practice. The Prophet taught that tolerance is to be had towards others and that none but Allah can be the judge of right and wrong.

People like Osama bin Laden are seen as being anti-Islam because they continuously break Islamic code. Suicide and murder are not supported by the religion (any denomination of it). There are a lot of other misconceptions needed to be corrected ITT but I don't have the time to go through them all at the moment.

12/3/2009 2:47:50 PM

i think it's overly exposed as something horrifically negative due to fundamentalists, I think it's a immature religion, (look at christianity at the same age (1300-1400 years old) see: crusades, burning witches, heretics, oppression and control) that in 600 years should calm down considerably in both radical fundamentalism and the control the fundamentalists have. (countries and 'laws' from the koran)

overall it gets a bad rap.

12/3/2009 2:55:15 PM

i don't think you can blame anything on the "maturity" of the religion. the problem is bad people calling themselves Muslims and getting attention for it.

besides, in other threads its been said that just because a country is young doesn't mean it should be able to get away with things that older countries did in their pasts, so why should a religious group get away with it?

12/4/2009 9:21:46 AM

Quote :

"Islam teaches that "people of the book" (Christians and Jews) are to be seen as friends as long as there is no interference with religious practice."

How do you explain the verses in the Qur'an that tell the believers not to make friends with Christians and Jews, because people of those religions can never be true un-deceptive friends of Muslims?

12/4/2009 10:29:11 AM

^have you read those lines directly or are you listening to other people who quote out of context and with incorrect translations?

[Edited on December 4, 2009 at 10:30 AM. Reason : -]

12/4/2009 10:30:07 AM

^ I have done both... I want to know your POV/interpretation.

12/4/2009 10:34:42 AM

I am asking my friend about this. She can't explain it to me right now bc she is taking an engineering test at home but she believes that maybe OEPII1 is misinterpreting something. I quoted what you said, OE. I will quote what she says. She is a Muslim woman from Oman. I hope it is not true because I love her so much but I also don't want her to be misaligned.

[Edited on December 4, 2009 at 10:57 AM. Reason : right now]

12/4/2009 10:56:09 AM

There is an Islamic concept of Dhimmi, which literally means protection. Any non-Muslim living in an Islamic nation must be protected under the same standard of law and justice as every Muslim, as long as they are making the same contribution (taxes paid) as the Muslim citizens.

Quran Surah (Chapter) 109 on religious tolerance:

Quote :

"In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Merciful. Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your way, and to me mine. "

12/4/2009 10:58:38 AM

Quote :

"besides, in other threads its been said that just because a country is young doesn't mean it should be able to get away with things that older countries did in their pasts, so why should a religious group get away with it? "

oh im not saying they should get away with it, not at all, just explaining why they act like that and why extreme fundamentalists are in control

Christianity used to have something similar about converting or dying or something like that... i don't recall offhand...

but still, only the extreme fundamentalists really actually FOLLOW those parts, as a religion ages it really starts to fully sink in and normalize behavior away from fundamentalism and fanatics as the commanding presence in countries.

especially the overly brutal "laws" that islam has.

[Edited on December 4, 2009 at 11:02 AM. Reason : s]

12/4/2009 10:59:22 AM

^understood, it just kind of came off as making an excuse for them. but as i've stated before, the crimes of the few shouldn't reflect on the many. (and convert or die was a big thing for a long time...but spanish inquisition was the biggest ordeal i can think of)

more Quranic quotes on religious tolerance:

Quote :

"If Allah so willed, he would have made you a single People, but his plan is to test each of you separately, in what He has given to each of you: so strive in all virtues as in you are in a race. The goal of all of you is to Allah. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute. 5:48"

Quote :

"And dispute not with the People of the Book, except with means better than mere disputation, unless I be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury, but say to them: "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him that we bow. 29:46"

Quote :

"Say: “O People of the Book! Come to what is common between us and you: That we worship none but God, that we associate no partners with Him, that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords other than Allah. If then they turn back, say: 'Bear witness that we are bowing to Allah’s will 3:64"

[Edited on December 4, 2009 at 11:09 AM. Reason : -]

12/4/2009 11:08:23 AM

I looked up the sects.
I did not know this one existed.

Quote :

"Ahmadiyya Islam was founded in 1889 by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (c. 1839-1908) in Qadian, Punjab, India. Ahmad claimed to be the appearance of the promised Messiah (or, according to some sources, the manifestation of the Prophet Muhammad as well as an incarnation of Jesus and the Hindu god Krishna). Ghulam Ahmad taught that Jesus feigned his crucifixion and resurrection, then lived to be 120 years old in India, contradicting the orthodox Muslim doctrine that Jesus was taken up into heaven before his death. Ahmad also reinterpreted jihad as a nonviolent battle against nonbelievers, using as its weapon the pen instead of the sword. These doctrines, along with the teaching that Ahmad was a prophet like Muhammad, have led Ahmadiyyas to be denounced as heretics by most of orthodox Islam. Upon the death of Ahmad, Mawlawi Nur-ad-Din was elected as successor (caliph). When he died in 1914, the Ahmadiya group split into two groups: * Qadiani, who recognize Ahmad as a prophet; and * Lahore, who regard Ahamad only as a reformer of Islam. Today there are about 170 million Ahmadiyya Muslims in the world. Qadianis reside mainly in Pakistan, where they are zealous missionaries for Islam and the two prophets Muhammad and Ahmad. Lahore Ahmadiyyas also seek converts, but more to Islam in general than to their particular sect. Ahmadiyya Islam is also associated with several Sufi orders, most notably the Al-Badawi order of Egypt, named for an Islamic saint who died in 1276. "

12/4/2009 11:08:27 AM

shit extreme fundies don't even follow that tolerance bit with themselves (shia-shi'ite infighting)

12/4/2009 11:09:27 AM

For bdmazur and punchmonk

Quote :

"Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah..." Qur'an (3:118) - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." Qur'an (9:23) - "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers" Qur'an (53:29) - "Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world." Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.""

Also for monkeypunch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_sects


[Edited on December 4, 2009 at 11:20 AM. Reason : ]

12/4/2009 11:14:57 AM

yeah there is this guy that, although I don't completely agree with him, insists that the God of Jews and Christians is different than the God of Muslims.

he bases this 90% in the wording of the accompanying religious texts and 10% on other factors....

based on that it does seem like 2 different people talking, but most of that could have been the writer(s), the interpretations, and the translations. a lot of it is cultural, and the specific needs that some groups have

personally I think it's the same God, just different faces/manifestations/iterations.

the Buddhists have it as well but much more vaguely and much more generally, the Hindu have it but have divided it up a lot.

regaurdless religion should never imped your interactions with well intentioned people (I wanted to say affect or influence but there are always people out there claiming to 'always do what jesus or god wants us to do')

personally Catholicism acts as a base from which I build upon, I don't think I conscously have it affect my actions or attitudes, at least I don't try or insist that it does. for some reason I find it funny that some people don't have a deep enough connection just to let it submerge into your being but feel the need to express it overly. dunno why but I do. I suppose they are just 'overflowing' but I think that's a lame excuse/insult towards everyone else that's somehow 'not full enough' or something....

meh, I hope someone gets what I'm trying to say, im too lazy to look up theological quotes about my perspective, as I'm sure someone much more eloquant than I has described it better.

12/4/2009 11:26:08 AM

^^depending on who you ask, "Unbelievers" refers more to false Muslims (best example Osama bin Laden) than Jews and Christians. There's no denying that there are contradictory statements and yes there are lines saying Jews and Christians are bad and can't be trusted, but that's no different than most world religions (the New Testament is FILLED with it)

^I would argue that Jews and Muslims have the same G-d while Christianity does not. Its a really complicated conversation to explain myself on that one, better had over a beer instead of on a message board.

12/4/2009 11:32:24 AM

^ i could see that

12/4/2009 11:46:44 AM

It really comes down to is the sacrifice of Christ. Islam and Judaism don't need G-d to send a savior. The view of the trinity also takes away from pure monotheism.

12/6/2009 1:59:54 AM

Islam = religion = people making shit up instead of finding real answers to problems = bullshit.

12/6/2009 2:02:58 AM

^

12/6/2009 2:03:30 AM

^^

12/6/2009 2:22:35 AM

Quote :

"The view of the trinity also takes away from pure monotheism."

so you are saying that god is not all powerful?

12/6/2009 2:24:04 AM

I always thought that was pretty lame. "Dont worship multiple gods and spirits, that is heathenism! Believe in only THE ONE GOD...and his son, the saints, the angels, the holy ghost, and some other stuff"

12/6/2009 2:28:16 AM

^^a Christian preacher once tried to convince me that the Trinity is present in the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament" as most of you would call it, but is isn't old to me as I don't have a new one)

Every time G-d is mentioned, a plural term is used (ie, let US create man in OUR image). He insisted that the plurality supports belief in the trinity.

My response was that G-d, while being single, is infinite. So while G-d may be infinite, G-d certainly isn't three.

12/6/2009 3:20:52 AM

so why can't you type out God?

12/6/2009 3:21:59 AM

G-d's name is sacred and holy, and should something happen to that name, even in written form, would be a terrible thing. Therefor the name shouldn't be written out completely in case it gets erased, defamed, etc.

I will type out god like Zeus and Thor are gods.

(disclaimer: this is just how I am, and most religious Jews are the same way. G-d's true name isn't ever written out in Hebrew either, just abbreviated or written as "Our Lord" or "Our Ruler." It doesn't upset me if other people do it, its just my decision not to)

[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 3:26 AM. Reason : -]

12/6/2009 3:24:38 AM

yeah I've come across it before, I just don't get it

[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 3:33 AM. Reason : not hatin' though]

12/6/2009 3:33:16 AM

its been happening for at least 2000 years, probably closer to 2500.

12/6/2009 3:36:51 AM

^, ^^, ^^^

While that theory is believed by some, I think it is a result of a misconstruction.

I, personally, believe it stems from the fact that in Judaism, "God's name" (Yahweh) is considered sacred and it is not supposed to be said nor written. In its place they use the term Adonai which basically translates as "The Lord" or some, Hashem - "The Name". As God is not a name for God, and it certainly isn't the Hebrew name for him, I would not think there is any significance, or necessity, in omitting characters for the sake of reverence. To support this further, Jews use the phrase "Adonai Eloheinu", which is basically a direct translation of "The Lord our God".

But that's just my take. Personally, I prefer Flying Spaghetti Monster.

12/6/2009 4:20:25 AM

if its wrong to type out "God" i don't think getting by with a technicality of typing "G-d" is any better. He can see through your game.

If you accept that God is all powerful why can he not exist in 3 persons? The trinity is still the belief in one god, christians believe in only one god.

12/6/2009 11:31:23 AM

Quote :

"I always thought that was pretty lame. "Dont worship multiple gods and spirits, that is heathenism! Believe in only THE ONE GOD...and his son, the saints, the angels, the holy ghost, and some other stuff" "

the whole polytheist/monotheist things isn’t about the trinity/single-God, it’s more about having definite discrete gods like Zeus/Hera/whatever vs a single God “idea.” The hindus for example aren’t really polytheists, because all of their entities are part of the same single God (from my understanding). LIkewise, God and Jesus might seem like different entities, but at least ideologically, they are supposed to be the same mono-theistic god with a single will.

also…



[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 11:40 AM. Reason : ]

12/6/2009 11:38:19 AM

Now I don't claim to really know much of anything about Islam, but it's like whoever else said; the extremists ruin it for everybody. I feel like Muslims and people in general just want to live their lives; make a living, raise a family, etc. Sure, we all believe different things culture to culture, but don't you think the world would be a pretty boring place if that were not the case?

12/6/2009 12:18:27 PM

Quote :

"I, personally, believe it stems from the fact that in Judaism, "God's name" (Yahweh) is considered sacred and it is not supposed to be said nor written. In its place they use the term Adonai which basically translates as "The Lord" or some, Hashem - "The Name". As God is not a name for God, and it certainly isn't the Hebrew name for him, I would not think there is any significance, or necessity, in omitting characters for the sake of reverence. To support this further, Jews use the phrase "Adonai Eloheinu", which is basically a direct translation of "The Lord our God"."

Yahweh (or Jehovah) is a made up English term. ???? has no clear pronunciation in Hebrew because its not supposed to be pronounceable. I don't spell out G-d in english because that's the closest equivalent this language has, so I treat it with the same respect.

(I tried putting int he Hebrew letters, but it became ????)

[Edited on December 6, 2009 at 3:45 PM. Reason : -]

12/6/2009 3:42:53 PM

Quote :

"G-d"

?

12/6/2009 3:54:58 PM

^^Actually, many historians believe that the name was pronounced in the past. The Masoretes even added vowels to the tetragrammaton in about 1000 A.D.

12/7/2009 4:39:03 PM

YHWH

12/7/2009 7:43:18 PM

Mohammed=false dead profit

Jesus=rose again and lives for eternity after dying for YOU

12/7/2009 7:45:36 PM

Quote :

"How do you explain the verses in the Qur'an that tell the believers not to make friends with Christians and Jews, because people of those religions can never be true un-deceptive friends of Muslims?"

So I asked one of my muslim friends [from Oman] and this is what she said:

*short answer*

Quote :

"The verse that the question refers to is: [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51) The word (patron = wali) in this verse does not mean friend. so the question assumes the wrong meaning of the word and hence it is not true that a Muslim can not befriend a non-Muslim. Simply the verse means that Muslims should take care of their own people and must support each other. (Wali) is used in the context, "the word "Awliya" is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".""

*long answer*
it is excerpts collected from Does Islam Forbid Befriending Non-Muslims?

Quote :

" * Islam urges all Muslims to deal kindly and justly with all people. * Muslims should have good relations with all people. At school, at work, in your neighborhood, etc., you (speech was directed to the Muslim guy who asked similar question) should be kind and courteous to everyone. * Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. * Allah has clearly forbidden Muslims from fighting those who fight not their faith or drive them out from their homes. Referring to this (from The Holy Qur'an) , [Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9) * The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims * There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time. * Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. (Examples) He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them. He is reported to have received the Christians of Najran with kindness in his Masjid in Madinah. They argued with him about Islam, but he returned them with honor and respect. There are many examples from his life that show that he was the friendliest person to all people. * Now comes the misconception clarification: The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma’idah is: [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51) It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other. In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir (this book is considered a reference for understanding the Quran) has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68) * Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: [O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.] (Al-Tawbah 9: 23) In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims' duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, [Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers…] (Aal-'Imran 3: 28)"

[Edited on December 7, 2009 at 7:53 PM. Reason : I did not know it was acceptable to marry non muslims. ]

12/7/2009 7:51:56 PM

jews, christians, muslims

all are goddamn retarded

12/7/2009 8:01:32 PM

The thing all people of all religions have in common is that we can all agree that HOOPS MALONE is a really great alias.

12/7/2009 10:41:18 PM