and go . . .

8/7/2009 5:29:54 PM

and lock

8/7/2009 5:30:09 PM

probably makes people that believe in it feel better so

i guess that is a point?

8/7/2009 5:30:40 PM

i see what you're doing here.

8/7/2009 5:30:49 PM

^^^ this thread has a point . . . kind of, see: message_topic.aspx?topic=573060&page=2#13150283

8/7/2009 5:31:18 PM

Not really. If God has a plan, then prayer for things to change is useless. The only other purpose would be to give thanks to God, making God narcissistic and vain, which is contrary to God being perfect.

Therefore, prayer is pointless.

8/7/2009 5:32:44 PM

it's all vibrational energy. don't underestimate it.

8/7/2009 5:35:29 PM

from the other thread:

Quote :

"What I love is when people who don't believe in God, praying, etc, get into a dire situation (like dealing with immediate danger) then start praying like Catholic school girls."

After six years in the Army, I've seen situations like that make more atheists than believers.

8/7/2009 5:36:47 PM

Power of positive thinking.

8/7/2009 5:41:39 PM

power of positive thinking ≠ prayer

8/7/2009 5:47:25 PM

i'm pretty positive prayer does not work

8/7/2009 5:50:28 PM

^haha yeah

I feel guilty praying, asking God for shit like the other hundred million dbags that ask God for shit they don't need. If I were God I'd be like then realize that I was god and then be like

8/7/2009 6:22:48 PM

i believe in God, however i do not believe in prayer as an active form of problem solving, but it cant hurt

8/7/2009 6:23:16 PM

what if god was one of us?!?!11

8/7/2009 6:24:44 PM

Sure. Prayer is a great forgiveness tool. Ex:

"Dear lord, please forgive me for beatin' this bitch's ass..."

8/7/2009 6:51:59 PM

Ah yes, the prayer of Chris Brown.

8/7/2009 7:01:57 PM

Quote :

"What I love is when people who don't believe in God, praying, etc, get into a dire situation (like dealing with immediate danger) then start praying like Catholic school girls."

cant hurt, unless you actually have the ability to think yourself out of the situation in which case praying may take valuable mental resources. although it could also have a calming effect.

prayer is almost like a free roulette chip right?

this is why everyday, i ask all know gods for forgiveness from my sins, and i include in that the sin of doubt, which lets me off the hooks for asking the other gods. this way, if i die suddenly and any of the religions are right, i'm clear.

[Edited on August 7, 2009 at 7:14 PM. Reason : a]

8/7/2009 7:13:56 PM

Quote :

"Does prayer have a point?"

NAW SON?

8/7/2009 7:17:21 PM

Most definitely has a point.
I have specifically prayed for things and it happens. Trivial and imperative.

Like, Maya's eyes. Now how in the hell can I will that into happening.

Here is the thing. God is like my friend. So, if you don't believe in God, then talk to a friend about a problem or exciting thing in your life, it always makes you feel better. I just believe my friend has the ability to make things happen. I don't believe in the absolute idea of predestination. I do believe God is bigger than that.

While we are on this slippery slope, I believe the bible is inspired by God but I don't think it is inerrant. I believe he is beyond just a book. He needed to give us something small to be able to grasp enough to know of him so we have a bible that is completely filled with his spirit. An instruction manual if you will. I can get along life quite a bit easier if I have some kind of instructions.

8/7/2009 7:29:55 PM

Prayer requires faith. Some people have it, some do not. I am not one of the people who has faith. Therefore, for me, it is pointless. Do not pray for me to find faith, it will not happen.

8/7/2009 7:37:03 PM

amen on that.

Everytime i discuss religion or some shit with someone thats almost what i say verbatim

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

[Edited on August 7, 2009 at 7:38 PM. Reason : ]

8/7/2009 7:38:29 PM

Some people take this stuff way too far

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-04-28-2851968877_x.htm

Quote :

"WESTON, Wis. — Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide. Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said. "It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented." Madeline Neumann died March 23 -- Easter Sunday -- at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day. "They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,'" the medical examiner wrote in a report."

8/7/2009 7:42:31 PM

^

Quote :

"A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle." Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle." With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."

8/7/2009 7:58:36 PM

Prayer has been a good thing, at some point. For instance, if you're dying, having a group of people pray for you probably makes you feel better. Feeling better is the point of it, since it will reduce your overall suffering while you're alive. Then again, it might just get your hopes up, when you really just need to accept reality and enjoy what time you have left.

Now, is prayer effective? Of course not. Time spent praying would often be better used to take action, or reasoning through the situation. Otherwise, it's just wishful thinking, and you're absolving responsibility for something that you may actually be able to fix through your own efforts.

8/7/2009 8:23:39 PM

no

prayer doesn't have a point

at all

for anyone anywhere

it's pointless

you're the first one to point this out so thanks for your god damn insight

8/7/2009 8:32:56 PM

Quote :

"Here is the thing. God is like my friend. So, if you don't believe in God, then talk to a friend about a problem or exciting thing in your life, it always makes you feel better. I just believe my friend has the ability to make things happen."

I like that.

and yes and that is why there are miracles as well, but ya if you don't have faith then all of this won't mean anything to you.

8/7/2009 8:40:41 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it is inherent"

inerrant, you mean

8/7/2009 8:47:23 PM

^^Just give one example of a "miracle" that couldn't be explained by purely natural processes.

8/7/2009 8:49:11 PM

I don't think she claimed otherwise. In fact, her whole point is that her belief is a matter of faith.



Personally, I recognize it as something that I cannot possibly make an informed decision on, so I try not to worry about it.

[Edited on August 7, 2009 at 8:51 PM. Reason : i.e., I take no real position on religion other than "I don't know"]

8/7/2009 8:50:54 PM

thanks theDuke, that is what I was trying to say.

8/7/2009 8:56:32 PM

i was a miracle baby. my kidneys were failing when i was a few months old and my mom was telling me about being visited by an angel and the next day everything was cleared up. the doctors had no way to explain it.

8/7/2009 9:00:41 PM

Since God is Omni-everything, praying seems to me like questioning God's will. Like asking an all knowing being if IT should reconsider what its going to do....seems pretentious in a lot of circumstances.

8/7/2009 9:03:12 PM

Yes, I'm more than familiar with the idea of faith. You know, believing something when there's absolutely no reason to. It's pretty easy to just go along with what you've been told all your life, just because it "feels" right, or because of social pressure. There was a point where I admitted to myself that I had never actually heard the voice of God...I just really, really wanted to believe that I had. The human brain is an amazing thing.

8/7/2009 9:06:02 PM

Its like saying "FUCK!" when something goes wrong, it doesn't do anything but it might make you feel a bit better.

8/7/2009 9:13:07 PM

I generally pray not to ask for things, but just to talk to God and to show and express my respect and love for Him. And I always say "Thy will be done, Lord, not mine," so that when I do ask for stuff it's clear that it's just a request and I'm not trying to thwart His will.

8/7/2009 9:16:14 PM

Quote :

"Its like saying "FUCK!" when something goes wrong, it doesn't do anything but it might make you feel a bit better."

Possibly the best answer to this question

8/7/2009 9:16:49 PM

Quote :

"Since God is Omni-everything, praying seems to me like questioning God's will. Like asking an all knowing being if IT should reconsider what its going to do....seems pretentious in a lot of circumstances."

How is praying to thank God for your day questioning his will? or Praying to forgive your sins?

you don't just pray for things prayer intentions are just one type of prayers.

Quote :

"Types of Prayer: 1. Adoration In prayers of adoration or worship, we praise the greatness of God, and we acknowledge our dependence on him in all things. The Mass and the other liturgies of the Church are full of prayers of this sort, such as the Gloria (or Glory to God). Among private prayers, the Act of Faith is a prayer of adoration. 2. Expiation In a prayer of expiation or contrition, we acknowledge our sinfulness and ask God for His forgiveness and mercy. The Confiteor or Penitential Rite at the beginning of Mass, and the Agnus Dei (or Lamb of God) before Communion, are prayers of expiation, as is the Act of Contrition. 3. Love Prayers of love or charity are just that—expressions of our love for God, the source and object of all love. The Act of Charity is perhaps the best example of a prayer of love. 4. Petition Prayers of petition are the type of prayer we are most familiar with. In them, we ask God for things we need—primarily spiritual needs, but physical ones as well. Our prayers of petition should always include a statement of our willingness to accept God's will, whether He directly answers our prayer or not. The Our Father is a good example of a prayer of petition, and the line "Thy will be done" shows that, in the end, we acknowledge that God's plans for us are more important than what we desire. 5. Thanksgiving Perhaps the most neglected type of prayer is prayer of thanksgiving. While Grace Before Meals is a good example of a prayer of thanksgiving, we should get into the habit of thanking God throughout the day for the good things that happen to us and to others. "

and ya like the person above said you always should say if it be his will, or according to his will.
Plus prayer to me is another way to be in Gods presence.

8/8/2009 7:21:09 AM

Quote :

"4. Petition"

Petition the Lord with prayer?



PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER?



YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!

8/8/2009 8:24:35 AM

geez i <3 punchmonk

8/8/2009 8:40:17 AM

Oh, I thought you were talking about Russell Wilson

continue

8/8/2009 8:40:28 AM

Quote :

"I have specifically prayed for things and it happens"

Oh, well that settles it.... no logical fallacy there...
God is real and answers your prayers.

8/8/2009 8:50:08 AM

Quote :

"i was a miracle baby. my kidneys were failing when i was a few months old and my mom was telling me about being visited by an angel and the next day everything was cleared up. the doctors had no way to explain it."

I hear this argument a lot. The problem is, that the simple inability to explain something with our limited understanding of the universe does not automatically mean that it is the work of a god.

If I were to claim that magical invisible crystal unicorns were the source of all that was unexplained I would be, rightly, laughed at by pretty much all of humanity. Yet, when someone invokes a god to explain the unexplainable, we nod approvingly. This does not follow logically.

Quote :

"While we are on this slippery slope, I believe the bible is inspired by God but I don't think it is inerrant. I believe he is beyond just a book. He needed to give us something small to be able to grasp enough to know of him so we have a bible that is completely filled with his spirit. An instruction manual if you will. I can get along life quite a bit easier if I have some kind of instructions."

With all due respect; I've read the Bible from cover to cover, and I find a schizophrenic, bipolar, selfish, often cruel, God. The people who point to Jesus as an example of God's love conveniently ignore the first 4 to 8 thousand years (according to Young Earth chronology) where he slaughtered whole generations of infants, encourage the Israelites to kill women and children, and punished one of his faithful in the most extreme way imaginable simply on a dare.

It can't even get the existence of heaven and hell straight, the existence of the devil, or the means of worshiping god. Not much of a manual if you ask me.

8/8/2009 8:54:15 AM

The universe is basically time + luck, that's it. The sooner people accept that the better off they'll be. Pray all you want, this video explains a lot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI

8/8/2009 8:58:07 AM

i, as a person, have no way of actually understanding god...
so he/she/it may actually be vengeful and cruel, like in the old testament.
it's a possibility.

i choose not to believe it because it makes me a happier person and well, i just don't, but still...

i've thought about this a lot.

kinda scary.


ps- i dont understand all the hatred towards people who believe in a higher power. if its not hurting you then why all the disdain?

[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:02 AM. Reason : dgfgf]

8/8/2009 9:02:05 AM

Quote :

"if its not hurting you then why all the disdain"

immaturity, inability to respect others

8/8/2009 9:04:44 AM

^^

8/8/2009 9:08:53 AM

Quote :

"i, as a person, have no way of actually understanding god... so he/she/it may actually be vengeful and cruel, like in the old testament. it's a possibility."

Another possibility is that god doesn't exist. Why won't you consider that?

8/8/2009 9:10:02 AM

^because i choose to believe. like another person chooses not to.




[Edited on August 8, 2009 at 9:14 AM. Reason : why not?]

8/8/2009 9:11:21 AM

iop1

why won't you consider letting people be free to think how they want to think?

8/8/2009 9:11:57 AM

My god is Russell Jesus Obama Holy Ghost Wilson. Flying along side Arch Tom O motherfucking Brian Angel

8/8/2009 9:13:26 AM