Let's start with merbig.

4/13/2010 5:44:19 PM

So the Romulan wants a treaty with the Federation.

4/13/2010 5:49:16 PM

still at it, i see

4/13/2010 6:07:40 PM

Well, a treatise would be too long. I don't think we are allotted enough characters.

4/13/2010 6:14:58 PM

I'm willing to come to terms.

But I want Carthage.

4/13/2010 6:43:06 PM

^^ this ain't Twitter. If you can't write it here, you need a blog.

4/13/2010 6:59:34 PM

Quote :

", what I am saying is that for English, due to it's subjectiveness in the degree, it's very easy to get a degree."

I like where you went with this. My original point which sparked this discussion was that English programs are criticized because subjective grading makes it almost impossible to get an A, that there's nothing formulaic, and to succeed you have to shine above even the best standards. I like how you took this and somehow made it mean that degrees are easy to get.

Quote :

"However, in Engineering, you can't get a C average in all the engineering classes and expect to graduate. If you really don't understand the material, the odds of graduating are extremely low, especially in my department where a 2.4 is required to get the degree."

FYI, grade requirements for major courses in your curriculum are school-wide. So, uh, yea, you can expect to graduate. Lots of people graduate every program at our school with a mediocre concept of what they're actually doing. Why do you think this doesn't apply to all courses?

You recognize that Engineering isn't a singular universal skill, but a layer of different abilities that you use together in one field, but you don't acknowledge that there isn't just "writing". English majors are forced to study backgrounds in extremely varied curriculum and fields--the origins of language, foreign language, technical research and communication, digital evaluation, rhetoric and the art of persuasion, literature (which in itself spans the HISTORY OF HUMAN SOCIETY, covering every historical period, movement, theme, motif, every basic understanding of recorded history)--and even then, no professional writer doesn't go into their work without knowing scientific method, logic (which is heavily covered in rhetoric), competency with technology, and background in science (because a lot of us end up being science writers... ooooh, tricky!) and all the other things which give us the ability and knowledge to write about any of the thousands of subjects or fields we could potentially devote ourselves to.

Quote :

"So, you admit that a degree for your job isn't really necessary. I'm not trying to say that the degree can't help. Just having a 4 year degree, any 4 year degree, can be put you at an edge over those who don't."

Yea, that's exactly what you've been saying. So your basis for saying the degree isn't useful is that it can be used to gain access to a large variety of potential fields of work? Are you fucking insane? In our current economic and career model, do you really think flexibility and competency in multiple fields is a bad thing?

Quote :

"But what I am saying is that the degree doesn't really teach you much of anything practical,"

Of course not.

Quote :

"and because of it's subjectiveness in the degree, it doesn't really tell anyone much of what you know at the end of 4 years."

If the professors and staff and University were chosen at random from your studio audience, then maybe you would even be making a BIT of sense in this argument.

Quote :

"It's certainly not totally worthless. But IMO, it seems like a waste of money, unless you plan on going to grad school."

Do you realize how many of the most successful men and women in the world, people acknowledged on Forbes top CEOs list, public figures are world leaders have backgrounds in Humanities, Social Sciences, and the extremely popular English degree? The problem is that you people are uninformed. You use stereotypes and assumptions to base an argument against something you're not even familiar with. Why? Because you're trying to make your own decisions in life seem the best, and put others down. Your argument has no basis in the logic and reason that your field should have taught you to stick by.

And worse yet, all I hear about is "oh this guy in English I met". Some of the most retarded people I've ever known were in science degrees. Guess what? Mediocrity is everywhere. Get the fuck over it.










Sweet, I totally sparked a discussion on TWW that wasn't just "LAWL UR NOT AN ENGINEER? HUR".

4/13/2010 7:03:02 PM

Quote :

"I did not say that. A degree is necessary for my job. Perhaps you should work on your reading skills."

Perhaps you should take your own advice and re-read what you stated earlier:

Quote :

"I'm a professional writer. While there's a chance I could get my job without my degree, my degree helped me stand out above other job applicants."

Reading skills? Yeah, I have them. Apparently that degree wasn't as much of a help as you had thought it was.

Quote :

"The idea that "practical" is synonymous with "useful" is not an uncommon one."

I actually never stated that the degree was useless. You drew that assumption all on your own. I even stated that any 4 year degree is useful in getting a job.

Quote :

"FYI, grade requirements for major courses in your curriculum are school-wide. So, uh, yea, you can expect to graduate. Lots of people graduate every program at our school with a mediocre concept of what they're actually doing. Why do you think this doesn't apply to all courses? "

I know that in MAE, a 2.4 was required for the degree, but after checking back recently, it's now listed as a 2.0.

Anyway, the point that I was trying to get at was this. I know PLENTY of people who have failed an MAE class because they just didn't understand the material. While it's true that some professors do curve the grades, this is not true for all of them. And even for the ones that do curve the grades, students still end up failing.

Can you say the same thing for your English classes, or do the sucky writers just end up with a C and on their merry way?

Quote :

"Do you realize how many of the most successful men and women in the world, people acknowledged on Forbes top CEOs list, public figures are world leaders have backgrounds in Humanities, Social Sciences, and the extremely popular English degree? The problem is that you people are uninformed."

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I'm saying?

Quote :

"but you don't acknowledge that there isn't just "writing"."

Where did I show that I don't acknowledge this? I've talked with great length with my roommate regarding the humanity classes that he has to take.

Quote :

"all the other things which give us the ability and knowledge to write about any of the thousands of subjects or fields we could potentially devote ourselves to. "

And as my roommate said to me. He's getting a degree in being able to bullshit about anything. I'm aware of all the humanity classes you take, and why you take them. But all they give you is a very general knowledge on the subjects.

Quote :

"So your basis for saying the degree isn't useful is that it can be used to gain access to a large variety of potential fields of work?"

Funny, because I didn't say that. It's nothing but a straw man that you're trying to build up. I'm sure you know about straw man logic from your rhetoric class. In fact, if you actually read what you had quoted, you would have seen that I said that a degree is helpful. Hell, I don't need to tell you that a degree is only useful for getting a job. Why is that? Because most people assume that with a degree, you possess some type of knowledge on the subject you got the degree in.

Take me for instance. I'm going for an ME degree. When I graduate, employers will assume that I know about thermodynamics, how to do free-body diagrams and finding the equations of motion for an object, ect. They assume that I possess some skill set. They can assume that I at least know the basics. They can assume that it is highly unlikely that I just "lucked" out and got a degree.

With an English degree, is there any guarantee that the person who has the degree actually possess the skill set that is assumed to come with the degree? Is there a guarantee that they know how to write, or that they know logic, ect? With how subjective your field is, I find it hard to believe that any employer can see that degree and know that you possess the skill set that they assume you have.

It's not so much the subject matter that I find to be the problem. It's the grading. If you guys could come up with some way to add some objectivity to your grading, I could take it seriously. I think it would add more to the validity of the degree.

Quote :

"If the professors and staff and University were chosen at random from your studio audience, then maybe you would even be making a BIT of sense in this argument."

The people looking at the degree don't know the professors. They don't know what each professors standards are. While I doubt the University will hire just anyone (and to my knowledge, there are some well known writers in the department), there are no solidified standards for which to base the degree on. Just the standards that each professor the student had.

Quote :

"You use stereotypes and assumptions to base an argument against something you're not even familiar with."

And you're assuming that I don't know anything about your department. Granted, I don't proclaim to be an expert, but I know a lot more about it than you think that I know about it.

And regardless, this is not a valid defense against my claim that your degree has little value to it. This is not a valid defense against my attitude towards the degree being compromised of mostly subjective grading. This is not a valid defense against my proclamation that it is easy to get an English degree.

And perhaps you don't understand what I mean by devaluing the degree? When it is easy to attain a degree, it does lose value. It's kind of like supply and demand. When you have a large amount of people capable of getting such a degree, the demand for it goes down. And I feel that a large part of the reason why many people are capable of getting an English degree is due to the subjectivity within the program itself.

How often do you hear of a student having to drop out of Engineer, or an Engineer major failing a class? The same thing with other majors, like Biology, Chemistry, ect. Now look at your own College (CHASS) and ask yourself why you see people from other Colleges switching into CHASS. Is it because they want a challenge, or is it because they've already devoted 2 years of their life to college and they don't want to have nothing to show for it, so they switch in their CHASS or Business so they can get something.

But if you want to refute what I'm saying, the worst way you can do it is by trying to attack me or claim that I'm using "stereotypes" and "assumptions" without saying anything else that will backup what you're saying.

Quote :

"Because you're trying to make your own decisions in life seem the best, and put others down."

Again, here you go with putting words in my mouth. I haven't chastised or put anyone down for getting the degree. I've put down the English department and the degree, but I haven't attacked anyone, including you. If you want to go get an English degree, then by all means do so.

Quote :

"And worse yet, all I hear about is "oh this guy in English I met"."

"This guy in English I met" is my roommate and some of his friends that are within the department. It's true, I don't know everything. But at the same time, you're awfully getting defensive for someone who hasn't even been attacked. Has anyone called you stupid for going for an English degree? Is anyone chastising you?

4/13/2010 7:04:09 PM

so many words

so little care

4/13/2010 7:04:45 PM

Quote :

" I actually never stated that the degree was useless. You drew that assumption all on your own. I even stated that any 4 year degree is useful in getting a job."

"...it's very easy to get a degree."
"...the degree doesn't really teach you much of anything practical,"
"...it seems like a waste of money."

Quote :

" Reading skills? Yeah, I have them."

If you knew anything about your own damn language, you might be able to understand what the words coming out of your mouth mean, and what conclusions they draw. You're using the same argument as "I never asked him to kill her, I only asked her to bound her and shoot her in the head, I never said anything about killing."

Quote :

" Anyway, the point that I was trying to get at was this. I know PLENTY of people who have failed an MAE class because they just didn't understand the material. While it's true that some professors do curve the grades, this is not true for all of them. And even for the ones that do curve the grades, students still end up failing. Can you say the same thing for your English classes, or do the sucky writers just end up with a C and on their merry way?"

Look, you don't base the rule off the exception. Maybe your roommate wasn't a good writer, maybe he was wrong, because there are plenty of people that fail and get terrible grades. I don't even see your point. You don't think people fail English classes? Are you that dense?

Quote :

" This has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I'm saying?"

Yes, it does. You were talking about practicality, and degrees being worth their money. Any English teacher would fail you for the analysis you're putting forth in this thread. The career advantages of a degree certainly have something to do with them being worth the effort.

Quote :

" Where did I show that I don't acknowledge this? I've talked with great length with my roommate regarding the humanity classes that he has to take."

You've been undermining English the entire time, and you've amounted the major to single comparisons. Whether you realize it or not you've been doing it the whole time.

Quote :

" nd as my roommate said to me. He's getting a degree in being able to bullshit about anything. I'm aware of all the humanity classes you take, and why you take them. But all they give you is a very general knowledge on the subjects."

We have electives the same as anyone else. Except, unlike other programs, most of us take some of these classes as critical and core classes to supplement a specialization in a field. There's nothing "general" about it, that's an assumptive and "general" argument with no actual specifics to it.

Quote :

" Funny, because I didn't say that. It's nothing but a straw man that you're trying to build up. I'm sure you know about straw man logic from your rhetoric class. In fact, if you actually read what you had quoted, you would have seen that I said that a degree is helpful. Hell, I don't need to tell you that a degree is only useful for getting a job. Why is that? Because most people assume that with a degree, you possess some type of knowledge on the subject you got the degree in."

Actually, we don't call that a strawman in rhetoric, because I never used any strawman arguments, I directly attacked your ethos as an effective source for information, because so far you've dug a hole of bullshit for yourself. And don't give us this bullshit that you "actually said the degree was helpful." You tucked that nice little statement in between the three quotes I gave up top--about the degree being worthless and lacking practicality. Your entire argument is based on fallacies, and instead of defending the actual points I've brought up, you're pointing to tiny things you may or may not have said.

Quote :

" With an English degree, is there any guarantee that the person who has the degree actually possess the skill set that is assumed to come with the degree? Is there a guarantee that they know how to write, or that they know logic, ect? With how subjective your field is, I find it hard to believe that any employer can see that degree and know that you possess the skill set that they assume you have."

You're doing it again. You must not realize that English majors have to pick specializations, and that their actual degree program is highly tailored to certain analytical skills. You're making an argument assuming that the consensus is that an English degree doesn't inherently mean anything--but, oh yea, it does! It means the same thing your degree means. What don't you understand about this? All classes have to be passed to gain credit. You either know it and know it well, or you slipped by. This works for EVERYONE. A degree IS a LIST OF THINGS YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO KNOW. If you don't, they move on to the next person.

Quote :

" It's not so much the subject matter that I find to be the problem. It's the grading. If you guys could come up with some way to add some objectivity to your grading, I could take it seriously. I think it would add more to the validity of the degree."

And you're basing this entire argument on "the degree is subjective". Individual grades are subjective, I said that myself, but apparently you don't understand the entire structure of how this works. The difference between an A and a B is subjective between one teacher and the next, GENERALLY, but that teacher maintains that organizational structure within his class and between students. That is basic education practice and it happens in every field, not just English. English professors have a "list" of what qualifies a paper for each grade--you have to meet these requirements to even place within that letter grade. I say it's subjective because the teachers DECIDE how that system is organized. This isn't just in English, it happens in every field that doesn't use multiple choice for every single test, so yea, it includes math. If you want to critique the educational system, just making fun of English majors isn't even close to the origin. It's not a black or white thing here. But hey, I don't blame you for not understanding layered concepts.

And furthermore, why do you think that an Engineering Degree means anything more than any other degree? It doesn't, and employeers know that. They know what it SHOULD mean, but it doesn't always. You also treat "rhetoric, logic, literature, editing" like they're all one skill set. In English there's specializations just like there is in Engineering. a Creative Writing major isn't fit for all the same jobs as an English Education or an English Rhetoric major, and a Chemical Engineer doesn't do all the same jobs as an Aerospace Engineer. You shouldn't operate this argument on the assumption that an English degree means nothing, because you haven't even come close to being able to conclude this.

4/13/2010 7:05:43 PM

Quote :

" he people looking at the degree don't know the professors. They don't know what each professors standards are. While I doubt the University will hire just anyone (and to my knowledge, there are some well known writers in the department), there are no solidified standards for which to base the degree on. Just the standards that each professor the student had."

Except your wrong. Because there's basic requirements for every course and every program. The specializations in English are not just hit or miss "take whatever you want" courses. You're saying that Teachers don't know anything and that our University is just letting them do whatever they want. It's a highly structured process, and they use the same educational processes that any other teacher uses.

Quote :

" And you're assuming that I don't know anything about your department."

You just said there's no structure requirements for our degree. You can go to our departmental website and see them all for yourself. You obviously know NOTHING about the department.

Quote :

" And regardless, this is not a valid defense against my claim that your degree has little value to it."

Yes it is. If you're making up what you think you know, then you know nothing about it, and your statements are invalidated. It's a perfect defense. Hell, I even backed up my arguments with actual knowledge about the department. Isn't that cool how this works.

Quote :

" This is not a valid defense against my attitude towards the degree being compromised of mostly subjective grading."

Yes it is!

Quote :

" This is not a valid defense against my proclamation that it is easy to get an English degree."

Oh gee, golly, it totally is! Whoa, whoooooa!

Quote :

" When you have a large amount of people capable of getting such a degree, the demand for it goes down. And I feel that a large part of the reason why many people are capable of getting an English degree is due to the subjectivity within the program itself."

Okay, look, first of all, that's not a proper example of supply and demand. Secondly, there's a large amount of people capable of getting the degree, and not nearly as much as the amount that graduate in Engineering. You think volume reflects quality? We already proven that many people can't do English that can do Engineering, and that many people can't do Engineering and can do English. The simple fact that different people have different abilities has nothing to do with this argument. Furthermore, it was the first thing discussed that the subjectivity within the English program actually makes it harder to do well in the course, because you can "never" do something perfect. It effectively caps GPA because teachers are relunctant to give As--because they have high standards. This isn't "fill out the formula and you win".

Quote :

" How often do you hear of a student having to drop out of Engineer, or an Engineer major failing a class? The same thing with other majors, like Biology, Chemistry, ect. Now look at your own College (CHASS) and ask yourself why you see people from other Colleges switching into CHASS. Is it because they want a challenge, or is it because they've already devoted 2 years of their life to college and they don't want to have nothing to show for it, so they switch in their CHASS or Business so they can get something."

Are you digging this hole for an Engineering project? It's getting pretty big. You completely left the realm of logic and reasoning. Tons of people fail in science related majors. Tons of people fail in humanities related majors. Tons of people switch colleges and majors. There is NOTHING to suggest that all these people become Humanities majors after they fail elsewhere, that is you applying the aforementioned stereotype and previously assumed knowledge of programs you know nothing about. I switched from a science major to English because I fucking love English. The reason I didn't switch sooner was because of the square and backwards ethics of the South, which tell you that if you're not building something with your hands then you're not making a living. It's a mindset that's infected many people, and you're showing it by this incredibly ignorant claim that people fail and become English majors, and then further claiming that there's nothing challenging about any of the majors. There's nothing logical or structured about these statements. You'd think that when you hire someone with a science/math degree they'd know something about logic, right? Apparently it doesn't mean anything, so I guess something you said today was right!

Quote :

" But if you want to refute what I'm saying, the worst way you can do it is by trying to attack me or claim that I'm using "stereotypes" and "assumptions" without saying anything else that will backup what you're saying."

I can literally put my finger on any paragraph you've written and find an assumption. Do you know what it means to make an assumption?

Quote :

" Again, here you go with putting words in my mouth. I haven't chastised or put anyone down for getting the degree. I've put down the English department and the degree, but I haven't attacked anyone, including you. If you want to go get an English degree, then by all means do so."

ENGLISH MAJOR TOLD ME A FUNNY JOKE... This whole thread is you attacking people with English degrees. You don't think that saying a degree or a department is impractical and their degree without worth isn't directly attacking those same people, the things that are a major part of their life and their career? Does that mean we can start insulting each other's mothers now, because I've wanted mention that your mother dropped you on your head this whole thread, but I thought it wouldn't be a direct insult to you, since it only involves your mother and stuff. I guess I can do that now.
Your mother dropped you on your head as a child.


We can play this game all day. English majors work to get their degree, same as any other program. It means exactly what it claims to mean. It's just as valuable as any other major. Furthermore, your major shouldn't be a point of discrimination in the adult world. Stop making threads like this. I might have to take a break from school if this keeps up, geesh!

Sorry I had to post twice, too many words.

4/13/2010 7:06:36 PM

That's right bitches, rebuttal took two posts.

That's overdoing it right there.

4/13/2010 8:01:39 PM

time to bump this, i see. merbig has returned to burn up some more keyboards.

4/13/2010 10:13:35 PM

WORDS ITT

4/13/2010 10:14:58 PM

I JUST CAME BACK FROM ZAXBY'S!!

Quote :

"Reading skills? Yeah, I have them. Apparently that degree wasn't as much of a help as you had thought it was."

You obviously need them, you fucking retard. Jesus fucking christ, I didn't not say that I need a degree for my job, which you should have automatically assumed that I do need one!

Quote :

"I actually never stated that the degree was useless. You drew that assumption all on your own. I even stated that any 4 year degree is useful in getting a job."

BULL FUCKING SHIT! You said it verbatim! I read what you were saying and used that to imply that you said that my degree was useless you dumb piece of white trash. Again, read a fucking book you dumb hick.

Quote :

"Can you say the same thing for your English classes, or do the sucky writers just end up with a C and on their merry way?"

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS! Biggest assumption ever! We're required to take many classes within CHASS, AND THEY DON'T FUCK AROUND SON!

Quote :

"This has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I'm saying?"

Fuck you.

Quote :

"I've talked with great length with my roommate regarding the humanity classes that he has to take. "

And fuck him too.

Quote :

"Funny, because I didn't say that. It's nothing but a straw man that you're trying to build up."

I see words on my screen, but they don't make sense. Nigga, do you see me out in a field building scare crows?

Quote :

"I'm going for an ME degree."

Faggot.

Quote :

"With an English degree, is there any guarantee that the person who has the degree actually possess the skill set that is assumed to come with the degree? "

Look man, I know as well as you do, that people slip through the cracks. Don't tell me it doesn't happen in your department too!

Quote :

"Is there a guarantee that they know how to write, or that they know logic, ect?"

Yes, cocksucker.

Quote :

"And regardless, this is not a valid defense against my claim that your degree has little value to it. This is not a valid defense against my attitude towards the degree being compromised of mostly subjective grading. This is not a valid defense against my proclamation that it is easy to get an English degree. "

THERE YOU GO AGAIN SAYING THAT MY DEGREE IS USELESS!

Quote :

"But if you want to refute what I'm saying, the worst way you can do it is by trying to attack me or claim that I'm using "stereotypes" and "assumptions" without saying anything else that will backup what you're saying."

It's all you're using, bitch.

Quote :

"I haven't chastised or put anyone down for getting the degree."

YOU SAID IT WAS USELESS!

Quote :

"I've put down the English department and the degree"

Which means you're putting ME down, asshole.

4/13/2010 10:38:43 PM

no... YOU'RE the... um, stupid

4/13/2010 10:39:32 PM

OH YA U TRYIN TO PUT ME DONE!

4/13/2010 10:42:19 PM

THE FUCK OPTIMUM.

OH YEA, MERBIG WAS THE ENEMY, BUT THIS IS A THREE-WAY WAR.

AND WE JUST ALLIED.

WE'RE PROBABLY SOME KIND OF BALTIC STATES.

YEA, THAT'S RIGHT, WE GOT LOTS OF POOR KIDS TO FEED, THIS GONNA BE FIERCE.

4/13/2010 11:23:19 PM

BRING IT BITCHES

I HAVE MY MTN DEW AND COOKIES RIGHT HERE

[Edited on April 13, 2010 at 11:27 PM. Reason : ACTUALLY, I DON'T HAVE ANY COOKIES]

4/13/2010 11:26:53 PM

YA WE GOT POOR KIDS BUT I HAVE ZAX'S IN THE FRIDGE!

4/13/2010 11:32:03 PM